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He's not a pervert. I just think the writers get onto something( probably in some feedback loop with the live audience), and don't know when to stop(or maybe can't come up with something more original). I love watching those early episodes, before AFF arrives. But the writers have Howard jump up like some over eager puppy every time Penny appears. In the real world he wouldn't do that, he's not stupid, or so deluded as to not understand her reactions. I like his catch phrase, 'that would be me'(more honesty). I've been thinking about this idea(someone mentioned), about plot driven Vs character driven; aren't the two actually interdependent? I think one thing I really like about this show, is that I can relate the characters to real people. Fiction and reality are interdependent. I have stood in a court, in a crappy suit, having prepared my own defence(rent dispute).

Howard may have had a creepy, candy coating but he was not a creep. If/when a woman responded to his rap he smoothed himself out. AFF, with her constant allusions to wanting Penny when she knows she isn't interested in any way is a creep. And her obsession with deflowering a virgin is perverted.

Quote:"According to Salary.com, the median salary for an aerospace engineer is around 70 grand a year..However, given his experience and education, he'd be closer to that of Senior Aeronautical engineer, whose median salary in the LA/Pasadena area is over 103 thousand dollars per year. With his experience, he'd likely make closer to the higher end of the spectrum which is around 126K. "

Hmm. Doesn't sound like "peanuts" to me, Bernadette, sweetie

And besides, Howard is allergic to peanuts

Yes, but isn't the point of having the guys in a lower economic position to promote the idea that 'geek guys live in their parents' basements' since they're too immature to function in adult society (Note that Zarnecki also lived with his parents)? That for all their education we are 'only' looking at customers of a comic book store who play D&D and launch model rockets? The idea of the 'successful geek' (i.e. someone who is happy marching to his own drummer and is successful as an independent adult is shot down--even Dennis Kim had to give up physics for a gf) because it sends a dangerous message that individuals can succeed playing by their own rules towards their own goals. We had a character who exemplified that to a 'T' *cough*Sheldon*cough* so it's no wonder that his character has suffered the most and the rest of the guys have followed him down the spiral of misery.

Oh, this thread is about Howard. I miss his enthusiasm.

Yes, everything you're saying is true, WPP. The show tries to squash this idea that nerdy/geeky/eccentric people can be happy and successful on their own terms.

I just hate this idea that B. makes way more money than H., because even if she *does*, being an engineer is not like working at Starbucks. I also hate that stupid "3d printer" episode where Howard is shown to be irresponsible with money. I'm not saying he's a paragon of responsibility, but he was often portrayed as the most practical of the four guys; it's the dumbing-down of his character that I object to. Howard can use the Internet to turn on a lamp, but he can't be trusted with some spending money???

My brother-in-law is an engineer, and he doesn't have to ask anyone for lunch money. It's not really where the guys live, or exactly how much money they make, that bothers me. It's the dumbing-down to the point where they're not just a bit absent-minded; they're incapabale of doing *anything* right

ETA: I'm willing to suspend a fair bit of disbelief for a comedy, but the idea that the guys don't make any money is just wildly, ridiculously unrealistic, even for a sitcom. I always figured Sheldon and Leonard shared an apartment and have this sort of college-guy lifestyle because they enjoy it, not because they have to. And Howard's dependence on his mother is emotional/psychological, not financial.

Now they've got B and H (and L & P) arguing about money all the time, which is not only boring and uninteresting, it's more of that "wise wife, flaky husband" crap. All of these scientists make enough money that they should have no major worries, at this point. Again, I'm willing to suspend disbelief in some cases, but "the guys have no money" is just so, *so* far outside the bounds of plausibility that it's ludicrous. None of these people should be fretting about finances and acting like they're poor. Stuff like this makes the show seem just *totally* disconnected from any kind of realism.

It really makes the show seem like nothing more than a live-action cartoon, and the notion that the Canons are watching this and nodding and believing that this reflects real life on any level, is troubling. Between "Penny is now a pharmaceutical rep" and "an aerospace engineer is a low-level job", this is like some five-year-old's perspective on jobs/money/work and how those things actually operate. It makes me think TPTB have never had a job outside of the Hollywood environment.

If SH wants to play Homer Simpson or Doug Heffernan now instead of playing Wolowitz, I guess that's *his* problem...

EDIT: more likely, it's the writers' fault...

(10-21-2014, 06:52 AM)Louise Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, everything you're saying is true, WPP. The show tries to squash this idea that nerdy/geeky/eccentric people can be happy and successful on their own terms.

I just hate this idea that B. makes way more money than H., because even if she *does*, being an engineer is not like working at Starbucks. I also hate that stupid "3d printer" episode where Howard is shown to be irresponsible with money. I'm not saying he's a paragon of responsibility, but he was often portrayed as the most practical of the four guys; it's the dumbing-down of his character that I object to. Howard can use the Internet to turn on a lamp, but he can't be trusted with some spending money???

My brother-in-law is an engineer, and he doesn't have to ask anyone for lunch money. It's not really where the guys live, or exactly how much money they make, that bothers me. It's the dumbing-down to the point where they're not just a bit absent-minded; they're incapabale of doing *anything* right

ETA: I'm willing to suspend a fair bit of disbelief for a comedy, but the idea that the guys don't make any money is just wildly, ridiculously unrealistic, even for a sitcom. I always figured Sheldon and Leonard shared an apartment and have this sort of college-guy lifestyle because they enjoy it, not because they have to. And Howard's dependence on his mother is emotional/psychological, not financial.

Now they've got B and H (and L & P) arguing about money all the time, which is not only boring and uninteresting, it's more of that "wise wife, flaky husband" crap. All of these scientists make enough money that they should have no major worries, at this point. Again, I'm willing to suspend disbelief in some cases, but "the guys have no money" is just so, *so* far outside the bounds of plausibility that it's ludicrous. None of these people should be fretting about finances and acting like they're poor. Stuff like this makes the show seem just *totally* disconnected from any kind of realism.

It really makes the show seem like nothing more than a live-action cartoon, and the notion that the Canons are watching this and nodding and believing that this reflects real life on any level, is troubling. Between "Penny is now a pharmaceutical rep" and "an aerospace engineer is a low-level job", this is like some five-year-old's perspective on jobs/money/work and how those things actually operate. It makes me think TPTB have never had a job outside of the Hollywood environment.

The writers have gone down the road to marital problems on this show now too? Howard and Bernadette's relationship have always been in the background and I just don't know how much I'd want to see domestic disputes about finances and babies on this type of sitcom. And that's even with the new direction this show has taken. I'm sure Leonard and Penny have enough disfuction to power this show with ease.

As far as the pay aspect goes, I take it with a grain of salt just like I did with Penny being able to afford a decent sized apartment, in Pasadena no less, on a 'waitress with a shoe habit' income. I do agree that it's out there that someone with Howard's accolades (and connections since he knows a lot of guys ) is being out-earned by a microbiologist. It could be a way to quiet the viewers that are calling for more "girl-power" roles. If that's the case, TPTB is going about it the wrong way.

Quote:As far as the pay aspect goes, I take it with a grain of salt just like I did with Penny being able to afford a decent sized apartment, in Pasadena no less, on a 'waitress with a shoe habit' income. I do agree that it's out there that someone with Howard's accolades (and connections since he knows a lot of guys Rolleyes ) is being out-earned by a microbiologist. It could be a way to quiet the viewers that are calling for more "girl-power" roles. If that's the case, TPTB is going about it the wrong way.

I can suspend a fair bit of disbelief for a sitcom; the problem is that this is just another example of "the women are wise and competent, the men are childish and dumb." Early-seasons Howard has his issues, but he was never shown to be irresponsible about simple everyday things, and he's arguably the most practical of the four guys. That's kind of the whole point of his character; the others are theorists and he's more down to earth.

I don't object to the idea of a woman making more money than a man; I object to the dumbing-down of the characters and the portrayal of the guys as helpless and incompetent and useless...

The idea that a freaking *aerospace engineer* is a low-level job, or that Penny could be become a pharmaceutical rep overnight, is just sooooo ludicrously divorced from reality that it makes this show lose *any* kind of credibility.

This is just another way to punish and humiliate Howard and fuel these oh-so-hilarious "bitchy wife, dumb husband" storylines.

Howard would not spend $5,000 on something that doesn't work. He just wouldn't.

I find the "Penny's apartment" thing *slightly* more believable because I recognize it's a plot device so that she can meet and interact with Leonard and Sheldon. I'm willing to suspend disbelief for that type of thing. (Although, IMO it might've been funny, and more realistic, if she had a roommate or two. That could open up some good possibilities for stories.) She was shown borrowing money from S and L, more than once, so it's pretty clear she *can't* really afford that apartment and she's barely scraping by.

The idea that *engineering* is a low-paid menial job, is so wildly, crazily unrealistic that at this point they might as well put unicorns and dragons and Orcs in this show.

It's a kindergartener's view of the working world. It's like when you ask a kid "What do you want to be when you grow up?" and they say "fireman" or "astronaut", without having any idea what that really means....

Howard (and sometimes Sheldon) is the scapegoat. That's what this is about.

Nobody on this show, except possibly Penny, should be fretting about money or acting like they're poor. This show acts like the characters are choosing to buy comic books instead of food and living paycheck to paycheck. It's just way, way, waaaaayyyy beyond the scope of reasonable believability.

It shows the writers don't give a shit. They know their audience are stupid and ignorant, so they don't try to rise above that.

It's kind of ironic how the writers stay on these tired, stereotypical characters but yet (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't there a stereotype about Jews being frugal or even cheap? So it's weird/boring/annoying to me that they (H and B) would be having a domestic over money. Also, fighting over money is supposedly the hallmark for a dysfunctional marriage, right?

I think I'm just tired of the Bernadette character in general. She is just as grating as AFF at this point. H and B got married so fast that I didn't even have time to figure out what was even going on with them.

Now Howard is a sad-sack. Even Eeyore!Stuart seems happier than him. Howard's character could be one of those forever-single types. When he was single it was never him moping around about not having a girlfriend or complaining about how no one loves him. He just wanted to get girls. The episodes where the guys are going out to find single women were much more entertaining. (E.g. The goth episode and the one where Sheldon is Raj's wingman...Hulk sad!)

Quote:I think I'm just tired of the Bernadette character in general. She is just as grating as AFF at this point. H and B got married so fast that I didn't even have time to figure out what was even going on with them.

To me, the real Howard ceased to exist as soon as B. became a full-time character. You can see some softening/altering of his character even in S3.

It's true that there's nothing very objectionable about her at first, and she wasn't always bitchy, but to me she's just a non-character, a Mary Sue. She's so one-dimensional. She's a cipher, a nothing.

Even in S3/S4, I feel like I'm watching SH interacting with this random woman who wandered in from some other show. It gives me a strange and unsettling feeling of "wrongness" to see her in Howard's mom's house, hanging out in his bedroom. She doesn't belong.

My personal "last episode" of BBT is the Gothowitz Deviation. It's a fabulous ep for all 5 characters, and it's shortly before what's-her-face was introduced. There's still some good stuff after that, but it's not the same.

I know I'm long-winded and probably repeating myself, but the destruction of Howard's personality just gives me fits. It's kind of ironic, I guess, because I hate B's "angry" behavior, but I get really ragey and frothing at the mouth, myself, over what's been done to Howard. I don't necessarily need to watch him flirting with girls non-stop, but the idea that he's stupid and irresponsible makes me spit bullets.

Quote:Howard's character could be one of those forever-single types. When he was single it was never him moping around about not having a girlfriend or complaining about how no one loves him. He just wanted to get girls. The episodes where the guys are going out to find single women were much more entertaining.

EXACTLY. These guys were not miserably unhappy and leading empty lives before A and B came along. H and R maybe weren't getting quite as much female attention as they'd like, but they weren't laying on the floor and crying. They had friends, hobbies, excellent jobs, and FUN. I detest this idea that B came along to "save Howard from himself." Ditto with Sheldon and Amy, I suppose.

Come to think of it, it's like a weird gender-reversal of this idea that a girl is just supposed to sit and wait patiently for her Prince to come along and change her whole life...

TBH, if this were real life, I think most of Howard's "creepy" behavior would've resolved itself with nothing more than time and experience. Some people just take a while to figure out what's going on, in life.

Quote:It's kind of ironic how the writers stay on these tired, stereotypical characters but yet (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't there a stereotype about Jews being frugal or even cheap?

Yes, that's a very widespread stereotype, and it was even referenced a few times, in the early seasons: "Money...told ya!"





Howard is supposed to be the more pragmatic/cynical one, while the others are theorists. They've turned him inside out and upside down.