An Un-unravelable Web?

[ricardo shillyshally]

Yes it's just rolling zeitgeist; curse my left brain which organises, while my right shreds. I'm so bored of this old format; from the writing team, audience/laughter track,etc. You're aware of how most media creativity is being de-centralised(in sense of power/creative control), while becoming more accessible. I see the future; writers who are connected to their character, on lap tops in different countries(Indian writer for Indian character). Using Occulus Rift to visit virtual set. No company making decisions based on revenue. I see the future!

[wellplayedpenny]

Deadline Prady August 26 2011

http://deadline.com/2011/08/emmys-qa-big...dy-162413/

Memorable Lines:
[BP]: If I knew exactly what you had to do to make a show Emmy-worthy, it is absolutely something that we would do.

[BP]: We are depicting a particular culture, and whenever you are depicting a particular culture, there is an instant judgment made whether you are celebrating or mocking the culture. We knew we were celebrating it because it is our culture, but it’s through the prism of a four-camera comedy.

[BP]: I love what they do over at Modern Family, but I don’t find myself turning on a comedy. I find myself turning on a drama. Because then I’m not thinking about, ‘Here’s another way to do that joke,’ or, in the case of Modern Family, ‘What a brilliant way to do that joke.’ But to watch something that shakes you and moves you and draws you in, and takes you into another world — that’s real fun.

Mood of the Masses:

I truly believe Big Bang “shines” – and that’s overly generous — because the comedic landscape is so turgid these days. (“Two and a Half Men” a top show, really?) Mark my words: Big Bang will not age well. Ten years from now no one will give a damn about it. [Bobby the Saint]

I agree, 10 years from, no one will care about the Big Bang…it’s overrated….Since they got a multi-year contract, they don’t try so hard, as if they had to renew year to year….[Kat]

---

Wired Science September 22 2011

http://www.wired.com/2011/09/tv-fact-che...ng-theory/

Memorable Lines:
[David Saltzberg]: “Basically as soon as the writers release any fragment of a script to the rest of the crew I get a copy. Sometimes I’ll get six pages of a new script. These writers know a lot of science. Sometimes they’ll have a whole piece of science dialog that they’ve come up with and I just have to check it. For example, the script I’m reading right now I changed one letter. They had mentioned an ‘anti-photon’ but that doesn’t make any sense because there is no such thing. So I suggested changing it to ‘anti-proton.’ The writers, I understand, want the sound and the rhythm to be the same, so if I change something like that I like it to be still correct but not change the pattern. Sometimes they’ll just say ‘science to come’ in brackets in the script — like they want characters to be working on an experiment and they need some words.”

Mood of the Masses: No Comments.

---

HollywoodReporter Kunal Nayyar September 22 2011

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...yar-235671

Memorable Lines:
[KN]: “Do I hope that Raj becomes this womanizing player who can talk to women all the time? No, I hope that he continues to grow,” Nayyar says. “I really think if you take away a character’s obstacles then there’s no comedy. Comedy is really based on overcoming obstacles and if you take away that obstacle, my fear is that [Raj] would lose his funny.”

Mood of the Masses:

All I ask for in Season 5: More science with the boys, less sex with the girls. Nerdgasms are what set Big Bang apart from the competition since Day One. Do we really need another banal orgasm-infused sitcom? And oh, hoping for MUCH less Amy Farrah Fowler as well, by the way. The gifted Jim Parsons manages to make Sheldon adorably condescending; the robotic Mayim Bialik just makes the female Sheldon … condescending, period. She was tolerable in small doses as a guest star; as a series regular she's just become insufferable. [Sam]

Being in love with the beautiful girl who lives across the hall doesn't necessarily mean the show has to turn into Sex And The City. That's how it felt in Season 4 — hook-ups left and right. The farthest Leonard got with Penny on Season 1 was first base. The Leonard-Penny romance began as the secondary story (or "B" story, to use Bill Prady's term). The main story, or "A" story, if you will, was the science. I just miss old school Big Bang is all. [Sam]

The whole sexual context got out of hand...if you observed Leonard's relationship with Penny in series 3 (as Sam pointed out) there are two plots to the story. Even the people in the background weren't laughing...if they find it funny they're dumb. Some of the sex jokes aren't so funny anymore. Series 1 and 2 can be replayed again and again without dissatisfaction. [LV]

[wellplayedpenny]

TCA15 Lorre Shows. January 12 2015

No website found...elsewhere.

Memorable Lines:

"A common thing among all these shows is a rhythm. They have a beat," says #TheBigBangTheory's Jim Parsons. #TCA15

Simon Helberg loves the sound of Chuck Lorre's laugh. Means others will laugh too. Bill Prady says Chuck likes all his shows. #WBTV #TCA15

Kaley Cuoco: Chuck has gotten to know all of us so well over the years. Writes pieces of us now. #WBTV #TCA15

Do the actors ever veer from the scripts? 14 heads immediately say "no" #TCA15

"I am MARRIED," says Kelly Cuoco-Sweeting as Chuck Lorre talks about writers having "fallen in love" with cast. #BigBangTheory #WBTV #TCA15

Lorre on Mayim Bialik and Melissa Rauch: we fell in love with them and its a joy to write for them #WBTV #TCA15

@MelissaRauch just called Lorre "the comedy whisperer" #TCA15 #wbtv

---

Starwatchbyline TCA15 Lorre January 15 2015

http://www.starwatchbyline.com/?p=8252

Memorable Lines:
When Lorre was asked what is the best professional advice ever given him, he replied “If you’re going to fail, fail on your own instincts.” He shared his one regret as well, “I could have been nicer along the way and I regret that. There’s a way to say no without being an asshole.”

Anna Faris (Mom) said that Chuck Lorre shows have “humanity and dimension."

Holland Taylor (Two and a Half Men) said that “Lorre fixes problems with writing fixes. It is stunning to see the writers do it again and again.”

Parson’s also credits Lorre saying “Clarity is a key element of his shows.”

Simon Helberg (The Big Bang Theory) says ‘You know if Chuck is laughing, it is a wonderful feeling. Chuck is a barometer for the truth…and the comedy comes from that.” He continued teasing “I’m just happy this isn’t a eulogy for you!” looking over at Lorre.

Eddie Gorodetsky (Producer, Two and a Half Men) noted that Lorre shows are always “inclusive. No one’s saying ‘you’re stupid’. It’s come on in, enjoy it.”

Mood of the Masses: No Comments.

[wellplayedpenny]

DigitalSpy Jim Parsons October 5 2011

http://www.digitalspy.ca/ustv/s217/the-b...VQMNuiiPKW

Memorable Lines:
[JP]: "I feel like Sheldon seems to approach every situation by trying to figure out the scientific nature of things. I like how his scientific reasoning so frequently doesn't work in the real world when he's dealing with Penny or when he's out in a restaurant - but he sticks to his guns. I really like that about him. He's very sure of himself in a lot of ways and I think that's very neat."

Mood of the Masses: No Comments.

---

TVLine 100th Episode December 16 2011

http://tvline.com/2011/12/16/big-bang-th...-spoilers/

Memorable Lines:
[CL]:“The friendship is going well, but then we throw in a moment where she was drunk and [said] she regretted breaking up with him. So, although it is a little risky, it felt like the right thing to do, to explore Leonard and Penny again in the 100th episode.
“It felt true to the characters,” he added, “that they would want to try again.”

Not only that, but it also felt true to the series itself. “When we wrote the 100th episode, we went back and watched the pilot,” explained exec producer Bill Prady, because “we wanted to circle back to the inciting incident for [everything], which is when Leonard, who has Sheldon [pulling] him away from the world, meets Penny, who pulls him toward it. So, that’s what we set out to explore in the 100th episode.”

Mood of the Masses:

**There's a significant battle between those that love the Lenny and those who sees it as the weak link of the show, with Leonard being the problem.

"But I do agree if they put L/P back together, keep them that way. No more breakups. Let Howard/Bernadette or Sheldon/Amy have the wacky relationship." [PJM]

"I don’t know why they keep going back to Leonard and Penny. I thought that was dealt and done with. Also what do they mean it “felt true to the characters”? Was there Leonard and Penny interaction expect for that episode where they went on that date? And that episode proved to me that these two do not work together in a relationship. Sorry, I thought this season was about geekery like it used to be. This should not be the Leonard and Penny show. They’re one of the most boring couples. As for Sheldon pulling Leonard away from the world, I don’t see that either. Maybe the writers should not only write, but also watch their show closely. If anything, Sheldon has been pulled into the outer world. Leonard is where he’s always been." [Blurbs]

"Leonard was the reason of why they got to be friends, but honestly, if he disappeared I bet the bonding agent would be Penny and the show wouldn’t be affected, he has been so bland and douche-y this past two seasons.
Penny hangs out with them all and considers them all friends. Unless the writers think that if Leonard is not there then Penny wouldn’t hang out with them, which would be a huge disappointment and an awful thing to do to her character. To isolate her character to be just about Leonard, and enhance this “soul-mate” thing by making Leonard be the only reason she hangs out with them. That would remind me too much of this Bella/Edward thing, where her character exists solely for him. They are doing that right now, Penny is not a character unless there is a Leonard subtext over there.
She is a lush, depressive version of the fiery, stubborn but kind blond she was before, if coupling her with Leonard makes her that way, then the writers can’t question why some people don’t like LP" [Zarza]

"Rachel getting his “Frank says relax” shirt when breaking up with him was more engaging and sweet than Penny getting that snowcope from Leonard ever was. It’s all about timing, symmetry, and dialogue development.
The writers are trying to make LP the new version of RR, but honestly, that lost its appeal the moment they didn’t manage to make it better or original. LP feels oddly like the writers see themselves as Leonard getting the hot chick, and they haven’t done a convincing job of changing that premise." [Fer]

**The topic of Shenny came up and there were some that stood for the cause others were quite adamant that they were 'brother and sister' and to suggest a romantic twist was delusional. That being said, many did admit that Sheldon and Penny had the best banter/comedic chemistry.

" Whether Sheldon and Penny belong together or not you can’t deny that people like their scenes and it’s general principle to say it’s because they enjoy each other and have great chemistry (the actors).
And it’s awful to isolate Penny from everything she is and describe her as something that was influenced by Leonard, rather than what she is as herself.
Her most prominent growth was in season two, where she was kind, stubborn, fiery and sweet to all her friends. In season three she was just the girlfriend who was so pretty but a ditz." [Fer]

**On Amy and Sheldon, there's the divide between exploring the Shamy relationship and getting rid of Amy's character altogether:

I used to feel this way, but I really like Sheldon and Amy! I would like to see Sheldon really give that relationship a go! I just think it has to go slow so they don’t completely break his character. [Jenny]

And Please get rid of Amy. I don’t mind Sheldon having a female friend, but Amy is creepy and disgusting. [Templar]

I totally agree and she looks SO OLD that Sheldon actually looks pretty when he’s sitting right next to her. I think they should explore the idea of having a smart but goofy funny pretty Zoey Deschanel type of actor playing her character in New Girl as Sheldon’s girlfriend or friend. That would provide a sort of balance to the personality types in the show. The love affairs should totally not be the focus of the show but the dynamics between the guys. The love angles should only be an occasional spice for spunk. [Greta]

[wellplayedpenny]

HollywoodReporter Shamy January 12 2012

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...ers-280453

Memorable Lines:
[SM]: "It’s a relationship between two people who have never had one before in their lives, and it lets us break stories that on the surface are ones we’ve seen before in new ways through the Sheldon and Amy filter."

"They’re setting up their own ground rules, and they don’t feel any pressure to have a relationship by anyone else’s rules but their own," co-creator Chuck Lorre says of the pairing. "They’ve found a way for it to work for them, and it’s not the way it works for other people."

"You see a dark side of Bernadette that’s a little insight into what the future might hold for them," Helberg says. "We’re still baby-stepping toward the altar, but who knows if we’ll ever get there."

[MR]: "We’ve always known she’s a little twisted, but there seems to be a little darkness under that twistedness as well."

Mood of the Masses:
There seems to be a split between the pro and anti forces for Amy:

I'd take Bernadette's dark side any day over Amy's obnoxious, insufferable, grating, condescending, repellent, sanctimonious, abhorrent, needy, judgmental, creepy personality. God, Bialik had a whole freaking season to make her character charmingly worth being a part of this lovable cast, and halfway into Season 5, she still painfully splits TBBT's fanbase apart, even more than Leslie Winkle ever did with her disagreeable behavior. Why are they keeping such a repugnant character on? We need Sheldon to device an algorithm about this conundrum. [LeePrefersTrouble]

I like Amy and find her neediness for a friend endearing. I'd be her "bestie." [Liadan]

---

HollywoodReporter Nerdiest Moments January 19 2012

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...nts-276464

Memorable Lines:
Chuck Lorre: “When Penny gave Sheldon a napkin signed byLeonard Nimoy that he had wiped his mouth with and Sheldon now had his DNA and could clone him. He was so overcome with affection for her, he physically hugged her, which he can’t do as a character. We all stood there on the stage and everybody got all fablungent and weepy. It was a moment that rose above the show and became something else.”

Bill Prady: “When Sheldon is in a conflict with Priya and he activates the self-destruct sequence, which is set up to send an e-mail to her parents revealing her relationship with Leonard. We duplicated self-destruct sequence from Star Trek. That’s my favorite thing in Star Trek, when they get into real trouble and they activate the self-destruct sequence on the ship to confound whomever it is who is trying to take control of the Enterprise. I said, ‘Someday I want to say, Computer, activate self-destruct sequence.’ ”

Steve Molaro: “When Sheldon had too much coffee and put on the Flash suit and was running around andwhen the guys met Stan Lee. This is a very difficult question; there have been so many!”

Jim Parsons: “When we found a Lord of the Rings ring and we all wanted to keep it. The lengths we went to in that episode, it was very fun to play and a genius idea that they completely geeked out over: It affected them in a similar way that it affected anybody who had the ring in LOTRand it corrupted them. Sheldon turned completely insane, visually and physically.”

Mood of the Masses:
Talking about favorite geeky moments—and this gem:

How about when the boys purchased a timeshare time machine in "The Nerdvana Annihilation"? The scene where Leonard activated the time machine to the year 2328 and Sheldon, Howard and Raj "fast forwarded" through time (without prior agreement to do those silly movements) is hysterical! Then Penny: "Oh, please, that's not a time machine. If anything, it looks like something Elton John would drive through the Everglades." 4 seasons later, and I still can't watch that scene without laughing my face off. Yet, my utmost favorite Big Bang nerd moment has yet to come: When the boys acquire the time machine back and ship Amy's creepy arse off to 1991 NBC, where she can go back to playing Blossom and stop smearing our favorite show since Friends with her grating presence. [Bill Prady is my Hero]

---

HollywoodReporter Lenny January 26 2012

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...nny-284192

Memorable Lines:
"I don't know if they're made for each other, but I think that Leonard and Penny help make each other into the people that they'd like to be," Molaro says. "I think Penny is there to take this sheltered guy and make him more worldly and cooler than he ever hoped he could be."

"For [Penny] to be involved with a sweet, smart, sensitive guy who over-thinks everything instead of the idiots she met at the gym in the past also elevates her to someplace she'd rather be," Molaro says. "Who knows if long-term is in the cards, but I think they feed off of that and they're drawn to that from each other."

Mood of the Masses:
There are some people who are suggesting Shenny over Lenny, although the primary battle seems to be between Lenny and Lenny-are-boring people.

Leonard and Penny are awful together. He just spends the whole time showing off how much cleverer than her he is and never letting go of petty arguments, and she is allowed to boss him around because he wants sex. They have absolutely nothing in common and Leonard is only interested in Penny for her looks. As to why Penny would have any interest in Leonard - god only knows. He's not even a nice guy. [Azuzu]

[Louise]

Ugh. See, I just don't see what was so terrible about Vintage!Howard that he needs be punished by being with a "dark and twisted" character. There's just *nothing* funny about that, to me. I like dark humor in some contexts, and I like dark characters in some contexts, but not in this case.

The characters all have their flaws, but I just don't think H. needs to spend the rest of his life being "taken down a peg" by being the target/victim of an aggressive and domineering person.

This is a major character whom we had grown to know and love. And now we're supposed to find it fitting for him to be bullied and browbeaten, indefinitely? That this is some type of poetic justice? He didn't *bully* women and he wasn't *aggressive* towards them. Show me ONE instance of Howard saying something as harsh as "You're an idiot" or "Zip it, pervert!" to a woman.

"Howard was creepy/obnoxious/whatever, he deserves to be humbled" is just not a concept I can get on board with. What is romantic about this???

What is the *origin* of B's "dark and twisted" behavior? There is none, because she's one-dimensional. The show gives us very clear (perhaps too clear) explanations for the problems and neuroses of the other characters, and how they came to be that way. You can't just hang quirks on a character like you're hanging ornaments on a Christmas tree. Characters need motivation. They can't *just* be a foil to another character.

"Hey, you know what would be WACKY?? If the cute little blonde girl is loud and scary!!! Because, like, that's, like, ironic!" This is gimmicky, shallow thinking. It's not actual characterization.

I'm sorry, I will just never accept this narrative that "Howard treated women badly, so now his fate is be with an aggressive, controlling woman who will whip him into shape." Penny's various ex-boyfriends treated women worse than Howard did.

The characters deserve to be happy. At the very least, even if their lives don't get *better*, they shouldn't get *worse*, either.

Ramona was a rather psycho character, but that character worked well because she had a goal, a motivation, and the show itself *acknowledged* that she was an antagonist. It didn't expect the viewer to agree with her or approve of her. Now we're seeing characters who behave like an antagonist but we're told that they are in the right.

I actually love "dark and twisted" stuff in the right context. A "mad scientist" type of character could've been fun for this show, if the writing actually treated him/her like an antagonist/villain.

"Howard deserves to have his ego squashed" is just not okay with me. Like I said, all the characters have weak points and maybe they have some hard lessons to learn about life, but a boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse can't do that for you, you have to do it yourself. Nobody can "make you a better person."

I'm about the same age as these characters, and I've found that to be true, just from my personal experiences and observations.

The H/B f*cking SUCKS. Where's that new wine icon? I will have a Tequila Sunrise for mine, please....

The characters deserve to be happy, or at least deserve the freedom to make their own mistakes and learn from them, instead of being manipulated, coerced, and bullied.

"Hey, you know what's hilarious??? Women being assertive!! Also characters being malevolent and hostile for no reason!!" Fuck off, writers.

I think the writers would like us to think that Vintage!Howard went around grabbing women's crotches in public and saying "Hey, bitch, suck my d*ck." Revisionism.

We spent several years getting to know and love this character, and now we're supposed to find it funny when he's paired with a "dark and twisted" person? That's disturbing to me.

That might've been an okay storyline if it only lasted for one or two episodes, but not this. A Ramona-type situation with Howard could've been funny, I suppose. But Season 8 Bernadette isn't just a bit eccentric, she's verbally/emotionally abusive.

These writers do not love their own characters. They're sadistic towards them. They apparently can't tell the difference between giving the characters a *challenging* situation to deal with, which would be interesting, versus just straight-up making them suffer and scapegoating them.

This show's women are grotesque monsters. (Emily enjoys cutting people? Really?) TPTB seems to see females as just some inexplicable and malign force with no rationality behind it. Note that the two female scientists are engaged in animal-abuse and spreading deadly diseases. The guys have done some ethically questionable stuff, maybe, but they wouldn't hurt a fly. TPTB seem to be mocking the very idea of a female scientist, here. A, B, (and now E) are like the witches of MacBeth, messing around with brains and all kinds of gross materials, stirring their toxic cauldron. The guys are eccentric and neurotic, but A &B are presented as *aberrant*, as if there's something inherently abnormal about a highly educated woman.

I would prefer to see the characters confront some type of problem or challenge which is external to themselves, and see how they react to that, see how it stretches them, see what kind of character development it could produce, see what hidden fears or strengths are brought out, if they found themselves in an unfamiliar situation. Not this "and then everybody learned their lesson and promised to be good, from now on" moralizing tripe....

I've said this before, but you can't have a new character pop up out of nowhere after two and a half years and instantly expect me to like her, relate to her, or side with her, at the expense of a character I already know and feel fond of.

[wellplayedpenny]

HollywoodReporter John Ross Bowie February 16 2012

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...wie-288420

Memorable Lines:
[JRB]:"Kripke is a super villain — he’s got a speech impediment the way Lex Luthor has alopecia, but it doesn’t stop him from being endlessly resourceful and incredibly smart. He doesn’t seem to find Sheldon’s quirks charming — it’s almost as if he’s saying, 'Look, man, you are giving nerds a bad name. Pull it together.' "

While the arrogance remains, Bowie says Kripke's mean streak is likely fueled by his quest for notoriety — as in recognition of his accomplishments at the university. "Kripke probably would rather be a rock star, but he's stuck with this brilliant scientific mind. So he's got a lot of anger issues."

Mood of the Masses: No Comments.

---

The Hollywood Reporter s5 Finale April 26 2012

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-fe...ers-316649

Memorable Lines:

"There is some element of cliffhanging that goes on in a different way," he says. "It actually touches everybody in a different way. It's not something we do a whole lot of but I think it's really funny and there are spots that are quite emotional. I hope everyone likes the blending of the two as much as I do. I've not managed to watch the final scene of the final episode of Season 5 without getting choked up -- and I've seen it six times."

Regardless of what happens, Molaro says Howard's growth is worth celebrating. "You look at his transformation from Season 1 to Season 5 and it's pretty remarkable and organic the way he want from this hound dog to who he is today," he notes. "We're fascinated by that and these episodes reflect that."

Mood of the Masses:
"The writers have really been hit-and-miss for the past 2 seasons. I've noticed a few names gone from the roster (the brilliant Stephen Engel, for one); as well as some new additions (such as Mayim Bialik Fan Club prez Tara Hernandez, whose Amy Farrah Fowler-centered storylines have been some of Big Bang's most distasteful to date). I'm grieving for the show more than anything—fans like me who have loved TBBT since its obscure inception miss the excellence of Seasons 1-3. (Cue the sad emoticon.) To paraphrase Jack in Lost: "We have to go back, Chuck. We have to go baaack!"" [HamburgerToucher]

"I think Leonard and Penny will eventually marry.I can't even imagine Sheldon and Amy getting married, they have way to many hangups. They both prefer to live alone. Plus [Sheldon] doesn't like to be touched. What kind of marraige (sp) would that be?" [Mbusateri1]

[Louise]

Molaro must think people are pretty gullible if he expects them to believe that "Howard's transformation was so natural and organic."



Having the character literally announce that he's a new person now and "that other guy is gone", like some type of religious born-again conversion? That's as un-subtle as you could possibly get.

(It has sometimes occurred to me that the language in that scene is similar to the language used by a recently-recovered addict: I'm a whole new person now, everything is different, everything is better, yadda, yadda. There's even something called "Pink Cloud Syndrome", where a person is overly-optimistic about the changes in their life. In other words, it doesn't ring true.)


I have had a realization: TPTB are giving Watsonian explanations for Doylist decisions. (I recently learned these terms, and they are SO useful.)

In other words, they are giving lofty-sounding excuses for decisions that were actually about money.

"The characters become better people, and learn, and grow, and change" = Excuse.

"We made the characters less edgy and more PC, so as to attract a larger audience and make more money" = The Truth.

These are not character-based, plot-based decisions. These decisions are not motivated by artistic or literary factors. They are business decisions. These changes are motivated by external factors, and are then retroactively being given "in-universe" justifications.

None of this has *anything* to do with character development or story-arcs. They watered-down the product so that the faint of heart and the unimaginative could drink it and not feel threatened or challenged.

It's possible (likely?) TPTB even believe their own spiel. What they are doing is giving these very high-minded explanations of their thoroughly venal choices. It's such pure nonsense when they talk about how much they love and respect the characters as people, and treat them with dignity, and honor their integrity, etc., etc. It's all about what's expedient.

Contrary to a commonly-repeated myth, the ratings in the early seasons were good, and the show did not need "saving." It was NOT on the brink of cancellation. Perhaps the ratings would've continued to steadily increase, with the original format intact. But perhaps TPTB got impatient and weren't willing to have a "wait and see" approach.


It just makes me so disgusted when I hear these people claiming how "organic" and natural and believable everything is. They are truly the definition of people who love the sound of their own voice and the smell of their own sh*t. It is just the most blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy. Again, they must think their audience is very, very gullible.

Another thing has occurred to me: if Lenny and Leonard are of supreme importance to TPTB, then you might think that has no bearing on what happens with Sheldon and Howard. But if Sheldon and/or Howard were happily single, that might show-up the Lenny and underscore how bad it is. And now, perhaps the Shamy and the H/B are meant to make the Lenny look BETTER by comparison.

Even if TPTB loved MB and MR and wanted to keep them around (as we recently discovered), that absolutely does not necessitate changing Sheldon and Howard. A and B could've been characters without being attached to the guys. (Although, they still wouldn't be *good* characters, IMO.)

There is another thing which makes me view this statement of Molaro's as BS: as I have often mentioned, they had *already* cooled it a bit with the "flirty Howard" stuff by the end of Season 2, and that's long before Bernadette. Lenny is supreme, so they can't have Howard making advances to Penny anymore. This absolutely did not require giving Howard a girlfriend, or some big speech about how he's changed his ways. When the guys return from the Artic, does H. throw himself on Penny and start licking her face or something? No, that would be Leonard.

If certain aspects of the characters were getting to be old hat, they didn't have to eliminate those things entirely; they could just de-emphasize them a bit. They don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and destroy Howard's personality. They could just give him more scenes that don't involve women: building inventions, hanging out with the guys, etc, and put the flirty stuff on the back-burner. I'd be perfectly happy to watch him building robots, playing games with the guys, etc.

Likewise, if "Raj can't talk" was getting tiresome, just set that aside and give him more scenes with just the guys, where the mutism won't be an issue.

Personally, I don't believe that Flirty Howard or Mute Raj was getting tiresome. But it is simply not true that "Bernadette had to come along and save Howard from himself, or he'd be creepy and disgusting."

The Penny-Howard conflict is too much? Give them fewer scenes together. Episodes with an S-P plot and an L-H-R plot work fine, and would be pleasing to both the S-P people and the H-R people. Also, it speaks well of Howard that he apparently knew better than to try interfering with his friend (Leonard's) relationship. Either way, it's demonstrably untrue that Howard was totally incapable of controlling himself until B. came along.

TL;DR: Molaro is giving a fancy-sounding reason for a profit-based decision. TPTB are not just retconning events within the show itself, they are retconning their own actions.






(Because real men like robots. )

[SpaceAnJL]

- I think the reasons for the whole character assassination are that originally, H/B was going to be the beta couple, the Barney and Betty to the Lenny's Fred and Wilma, as it were. Only Sheldon got popular, and some idiot decided that what worked once could work again, if they did it longer and louder. And so the Dunwich Horror was foisted on us, which rather left H/B in the wind. A better and more balanced way of working with the scripts and the A/B plots would be to have a main triangle, S/P/L and a secondary supporting pair, R/H - none of which need be romantic, but would generate decent plots.

Sadly, the need to have everything conform to a neat, pastel, suburban existence has kicked the original premise in the face very heavily.

[Louise]

"A better and more balanced way of working with the scripts and the A/B plots would be to have a main triangle, S/P/L and a secondary supporting pair, R/H - none of which need be romantic, but would generate decent plots."

Yes. I've said several times that I almost wish H and R had been minor characters, but what I mean is that I'd rather have them be minor characters, than be *ruined* characters.

I always tend to be more drawn to the supporting characters than the starring ones, and I think it's because there's less information about them and therefore they're more mysterious and there's more room for speculation and headcanon, etc. (and sometimes their personalities are more exagerrated and colorful and eccentric than those of the main protagonist.) That mystique goes away when they start giving us the character's entire life-story, in a very heavy-handed way.

Howard has been brought to the forefront in all the wrong ways. I'd rather that H and R *never* had a story-arc of their own, than have a poorly-done one.

I do not like *any* of Howard's major storylines: the Bernadette relationship, the outer-space thing, or the long-lost Dad. Out of those three, I think I could've liked the long-lost Dad thing if it were handled better.

Ironically enough, I think this show performs best when it doesn't over-think things. As much as I love H and R, I think they've been over-exposed and are more impactful in small doses.

ETA: maybe TPTB aren't as Machiavellian as I think they are and I'm reading too much into things. But my main point is, they make bad decisions and then they come up with pretty-sounding justifications, after the fact. It's "The dog ate my homework."