Relationships

[devilbk]

And each BBT relationship requires and Alpha and an Omega, not a partnership of equals.

[Louise]

And each BBT relationship requires and Alpha and an Omega, not a partnership of equals.

Yeah, that's something I find majorly squicky, personally.

These ships meet all the criteria for an abusive relationship except outright violence, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's coming, too, in a supposedly-funny slapsticky form.

Seriously, just google some abusive-relationship checklists. It's true. It's all there.

[Nutz]

And each BBT relationship requires and Alpha and an Omega, not a partnership of equals.

Having an Alpha and a Beta or Omega in a realtionship is fine, it's the fact that BBT think the Omegas should be running everything

[SpaceAnJL]

More...Sheldon's been downgraded to an Epsilon, and Penny's too hooked on soma to care.

[Louise]

[wellplayedpenny]

This is from a book by Carol Lay called 'Strip Tease'. I love her humour and I think she'd appeal to you lot. Forgive the quality but I couldn't find these particular strips online so scanned them.

Her take on relationships:

---

And Another:



Reminds me of all the personality types Amy's been through over the years. This is the only scenario that could work for her to find a mate. Three Faces of Eww, indeed!

[Louise]

Like I said in the chat box: this show's themes are now the following:

Pedophilia: Shamy

Incest: H/B

Necrophilia and Sadism: Raj/Emily.

(plus, these are not mutually exclusive. There's def. some pedophilia in H/B and some incestuous themes in Shamy, too.)

And this is the #1 comedy in America, not some obscure indie tasteless-on-purpose thing.

Now, if this show were overtly a dark, edgy, boundary-pushing comedy and had been that way all along, I suppose you could argue that all's fair. But it's not. It's a light mainstream comedy which the creators/writers tout as being sweet and poignant and full of love and friendship and heart, and positive messages.

Well...I hope the writers are proud of themselves.

I can't help but think there's a "bazinga" coming at the end of it all and that the viewers are being trolled. "How much bizarre and twisted stuff will they accept before they start to notice or object?" I wouldn't be surprised if the writers are saying that to themselves, and seeing just how far they can push the envelope.

The alternative, that they *actually* believe these couples are heartwarming and lovely, is much worse.

You've got all these unbelievably gross and disturbing and inappropriate themes...but Howard liking pin-up girls and ANTM and saying "If you catch my drift.."...THAT, *that*, was perverted.

I mean, really? "She made me a better man?" Are they honestly asking us to believe that Flirty!Howard was a more indecent, immoral, abnormal person than someone who is literally *turned on by violence* or seemingly turned on by infantilization?

S and H have to grow and change and repent and become "better", but Bernadette, for example, is free to give vent to her very worst impulses, in the most open and blatant way?

It's okay to enjoy cutting people's skin but it's not okay to enjoy meeting Summer Glau? The examples just go on and on.

Also: part of being an adult is the realization that you *can't* always say exactly what you think or do exactly what you want; you have to have some restraint and self-discipline. Yet the characters who are emotionally volatile and don't hesitate to show it, are labeled more "mature" than others. It's immature to like Doctor Who, but a "mature adult" can have an unhinged screaming fit that resembles a toddler's tantrum? A and B are doing the equivalent of grabbing someone else's toy and shrieking "mine!", but in this case, the toy is a human being.

ETA: if the whole point of Raj's story is for him to overcome his fears, then this is a bizarrely wrong-headed plot-development for his character. The result, seemingly, is that his fears have come to pass.

[devilbk]

But this is all typical for a Chuck Lorre production.

[Louise]

But this is all typical for a Chuck Lorre production.

I know. My point is that 1. I believe these themes are simply not acceptable or suitable in a light mainstream comedy, 2. There may possibly have been hints of these ideas in earlier seasons, but now it's no longer subtext, it's overt, 3. There are double standards in the way characters' behavior is judged, 4. It's vile and I won't watch it, 5., I wonder to what degree the writers are aware of this and to what extent we're being trolled/mocked/messed-with.

What I mean is, I *see* what they're doing, but that doesn't make it okay. And if this is standard mainstream sitcom fare, and the audience doesn't *see* how reprehensible it is, or doesn't care, or isn't paying enough attention to notice, that's not okay, either. To me, that's kind of what we HQers are, the people who recognize the problems and call them out, while others either actively approve and celebrate it, or are indifferent or oblivious, with the majority probably being in that third category.

If this had been a dark and nihilist show from the start, and was truthfully marketed as such, one could make the argument that anything is fair game for comedy. That would be a legit argument, though I, personally, would still take issue with it. But it's marketed to the very type of person whom it delights in abusing and mocking.

And what you said recently was spot-on, Dev: if you asked someone to describe the show or the characters, they would probably describe the original set-up, more or less.

[Louise]

Even if Bernadette had remained the way she was in S3, the problem, IMO, is that MR is simply not on the same level as SH, acting-wise. I suppose the counter-argument would be that she hasn't been given a chance, but I've seen good actors rise above cheesy material. (The Golden Girls is one example...)

In theory, it's nice to think of Howard meeting a girl who actually likes him and doesn't just instantly reject him. But insofar as this half-baked ship can even be analyzed at all, I'd say we were later given to understand that B. had an incomplete, idealized, sanitized view of who he was, and *that's* who she liked. She only liked the safest and sweetest side of him. Now, whether that's partly his fault, for not fully showing her his true personality, is debatable, I suppose. But if he felt that he could never let down his guard around her and always had to put on his best face, so to speak, that's an inauthentic relationship from the start. The (awful) message of Stag Night is that Howard hid his less-admirable qualities from Bernadette. We're not given the other side of the coin, which is that *she* was making a lot of assumptions and not communicating her own values and expectations to him. *And* that she was being pretty disingenuous if she thought he was a total choir-boy. (The ironic thing is, we know that he *is* essentially innocent and naïve. But that episode suddenly acts like his ladykiller persona was a real thing, which is also dishonest and weird on the part of the writers.)

But really, any attempt to analyze that ship is sort of futile, IMO. There's no plausible in-universe explanation for it. All these ships are the result of TPTB's arbitrary decision-making. I'm not interested in Watsonian explanations for why New!Howard is the way he is, because I don't want to believe that bright young guy from S1 could or would have the self-respect pummeled out of him to this degree. "This character is too edgy, it makes some people uncomfortable, so we changed it, so that we can make $$$." It really IS that simple.

From what we've seen, MR is simply not as good an actor as SH, and that's what makes this coupling all the more tragic and damaging to the show. Yes, the character is one-dimensional and thinly written and perhaps the actress hasn't been given much to work with, but she's had six years to grapple with that and figure something out, and she hasn't.

The character is just completely *unnecessary.* Any dating-related storylines could've been done with minor recurring characters or temporary characters. The addition of more characters disrupts the chemistry of the original five, especially in their duos.

It's obvious that women are Howard's blind spot, but I just don't think Vintage!Howard would put up with *this* much abuse, unless he'd deeply internalized this idea that nobody wants him and he's morally repulsive and doesn't deserve anything better and therefore he's "lucky" to have anyone at all. And I just don't think the Howard of S1 and S2 would do that, because he's so resilient and confident and not easily discouraged. For example, he was eventually able to recognize that Ramona Nowitzki was bad news, even though he was initially putting the moves on her. He's socially awkward like the rest of them, but I just have difficulty believing he's THAT lacking in the ability to read a situation and realize what's in his own best interests.

The most offensive thing of all, to me, is this idea that H. is drawn to Bernadette because her "tough-love" approach is what he needs, psychologically. That he *knows*, on some level, that she's making him a better, more mature, more responsible person and whipping him into shape. It's obvious, for Nostalgics and Purists, that this argument is for so many reasons; the chief reason being that Vintage!Howard is not lazy and useless and feckless. But that IS a statement I've seen Canons make, several times: the idea that these abusive ships are "good for" the recipient of the abuse. I find this argument so offensive and twisted that it makes me uncomfortable to even talk about it.

And even if Howard was indeed subconsciously drawn to someone who is like his mother, I just don't think B is truly all that similar to his mother. You can tell that joke was incorporated retroactively, because that wasn't B's original characterization. And Mrs.W is actually pretty permissive in a lot of ways. When you re-watch those scenes, she's actually seldom angry, she just has an ugly-sounding voice. She just wants sort of a token gesture of obedience from Howard and then she lets him do whatever. She doesn't try very hard to prevent Howard from going to the Artic or going to Vegas or bringing girls home for sex; she just makes a lot of noise. The only time we really see her pull rank is with the Whore of Omaha, who was admittedly being kind of obnoxious. Mrs. W never complained about his collectibles, and she was oblivious to his activities and interests, not actively hostile. She was mostly irrational and unaware of what was going on. That was the joke, at least in S1 and S2. She tried to forbid him from going into space, but I tend to ignore the space storyline and file it under "later-seasons mumbo-jumbo."

See, here's the thing: do I believe that Howard was spoiled by his mother, to an extent? Of course. I'm totally willing to believe that she did his laundry and cooked his meals and never taught him to do those things for himself. If he suddenly had to live without her, there would be a learning curve. But I'll NEVER, EVER believe he's so lazy and shiftless and lacking in initiative that he "needs" someone screaming and name-calling and emotionally blackmailing him in order to get up off the couch and do the most basic things. Vintage Howard is all about ENERGY. He's dynamic and full of ideas. If his mother suddenly refused to take care of him, I don't believe he'd just give up and lay down and die. The keynote of this character is his ingenuity. He's a *doer.*

Yes, of *course* he's a Mama's Boy, that's part of his character; it's cute and funny and slightly warped. All the characters are quirky and flawed and slightly warped, in funny ways, which are exaggerated for the purposes of comedy. Nobody is denying that Vintage!Howard likes to snuggle in his bed with his chocolate milk and comic books and feel cared-for. But that's CUTE. It's not the old "lazy husband" cliché, with a guy's wife bribing him with sex or lack thereof so that he'll mow the lawn. Lazy is the *opposite* of what Howard is. His plans don't always work, but the point is that he *has* them, and he tries, and keeps trying.

The Canon justification for the H/B ship is that Bernadette is making Howard more mature and responsible, and that he, on some level, knows this and accepts it. But that argument is precisely backwards: they had to make him LESS mature and responsible in order to HAVE this H/B storyline. The Canons are confusing cause and effect, here. They've got the cart before the horse. It's not "Howard needs Bernadette's influence because he's a lazy man-child", it's "We made Howard INTO a lazy man-child, because otherwise he wouldn't need Bernadette."

Now, understand this: Vintage Howard *is* child-like in some ways. I'm not such a starry-eyed jibbering fangirl that I can't see that. None of these five people would be the ideal roommate. But, as we've so often said here, the show has lost sight of the difference between child-like and child-ish.

Second chances are for people you know IRL, not for entertainers. I am utterly unimpressed with MR and that includes the sweet, lovey moments, and I'd say that even if it wasn't MY fave character she'd ruined.