Relationships

[Louise]

A and B are plot devices, not characters. They are tools with which to carry out the "change." I am suspicious of any character who is introduced for the sole purpose of being a love-interest.

Plus, none of these characters seemed to be deeply unhappy before the "changes." (Especially not Sheldon. Leonard was perhaps the unhappiest.) Did they have problems, maybe even serious problems? Yes. But so does everyone. There is no problem-free life. We all have challenges, disappointments, neuroses, fears, and areas of weakness. I don't think anyone can honestly say that these people's lives are better now. They've simply traded one set of problems for another.

Life is not some 12-step program where each person is steadily progressing towards some arbitrary definition of "better."

As I've mentioned before, I find the values promoted by this show to be utterly bizarre. When you examine it, it's extremely old-fashioned: the point of life is to get married/coupled ASAP, to the first person who is even remotely suitable, and this is the only rite of passage that can make a child into an adult?

Are we living in pioneer times, with a shortage of people to marry? People in their mid to late twenties need to "grow up" and stop acting youthful? This show's attitude towards relationships is downright Victorian. It's almost fundamentalist. Life has no other purpose than to marry young and reproduce? Are we living on a farm where we need 12 kids to plant the crops?

It's just *so* backwards and wacky, to me. I can't comprehend where the writers/creators are coming from, at all. This show's definition of maturity is to act middle-aged at 30. It's so completely out of sync with the current state of our society. I don't know anyone IRL who is in a constant state of panic about being single, or anyone who thinks you're a failure if you're not married/coupled by 27.

It's just *so* retrogressive and weird. Do the writers think we're living in a medieval village where you'll only live to be 50, so hurry up and get married before you die?

There are all different kinds of lifestyles out there. The show seems to deny that, strenuously. They won't show us a character who is content to be single*, or a gay relationship that isn't treated as a punchline, or anything other than "boy and girl must get together and stay together, now, now, NOW." They won't even admit that two people might like each other but not want to live together, or that couples can be together without a formal commitment. There's only one right way of doing things, and that's the most conventional and traditionalist way.

*Sheldon was content to be single, but they wouldn't leave that alone.

[Louise]

If this show had ended after three or four seasons, then the shippers would be free to imagine that every character eventually got married and had 2.5 kids and a golden retriever, and the non-shippers would be free to imagine other things. This is why I'm not in favor of having *all* questions answered and *all* threads tied-up, on a TV series. It's okay to leave some things open-ended.

Like I said in another post, IMO a long-running TV series, especially a comedy, is not a linear thing with a definite "beginning, middle, end" type of structure. Or at least, it shouldn't be. It's a very different animal than a novel or a movie.

You can't apply that three-act structure to something that lasts for ten years. That's when you get story arcs that last too long and become tiresome and have to be extended in a very artificial way. (Couples breaking up and getting back together half a dozen times). You can't bring on the weddings and babies *yet*, because then it's all over, so you're literally just killing time and waiting for the final season. (The H/B wedding was possibly a test to see if the audience would accept this sort of thing. And not many fangirls care about Howard, so he's sort of expendable. "Here's a wedding to tide you over until the weddings that you actually care about.")

I am fine with shows where each episode is more or less self-contained and there are no "arcs." That doesn't mean there's no *continuity*; I'm not saying they shouldn't make references to things that happened in previous episodes, for example. I'm not arguing for each ep. to be a totally isolated discrete thing. Seinfeld had a complex web of in-jokes and situations that were built on previous events. That's how you reward long-term viewing. That's the whole concept of a "running gag." But I have neither the patience nor the inclination for soap opera-style ongoing plotlines in a sitcom. I wouldn't want a particular story to last for more than three or four episodes at the outside.

Weddings, babies, and deaths are just so *final.* I don't believe that a sitcom needs an "ending." The whole point of a sitcom, supposedly, is its re-watchability. Supposedly what makes syndication work is that you can watch the eps in any order and not miss anything, or least not miss *much.*

Canons seem to want everything spelled-out, in the most obvious and irrevocable way: all mysteries revealed, all I's dotted and T's crossed, each character "taken care of." This is where their literal-mindedness and lack of imagination really shows: they believe that if they're aren't SHOWN character X getting partnered-up or whatever, it means that character is doomed to some sad fate. Whereas, Nostalgics know that if this show had ended after Season 2 or 3, it doesn't mean that Penny is going to work at the CCF until she dies, or that Howard will eternally be rejected by women. It means that they cease to exist. They're not real. I don't watch a sitcom to "see what happens." I watch to feel like I'm visiting a pleasantly familiar place with pleasantly familiar old friends, where things, for the most part, are reassuringly unchanging.

If the current ratings are any indication, TBBT will last forever in syndication. But fast-forward ten years from now: if I were a brand-new viewer, I'm not sure I'd want to start watching this show from the beginning if I already knew that it ended with a flurry of weddings and babies and that the pairings were set in stone by Season 4. That really takes the wind out of the sails of the early seasons. A lot of the old ongoing jokes have been unraveled: Raj's mutism, the invisible Mrs.Wolowitz, etc. It's like a vehicle that keeps losing pieces as it moves onward faster and faster. If I already knew these things, would the early seasons still be as enjoyable?

Anyway, what was my point? The writers have shot themselves in the foot by adopting an arc-based style of storytelling that relies on waiting for big-deal events to happen. They've fostered a different type of expectation in the viewers, but they can't deliver too soon because they want to continue making $$$ as long as possible, so in the meantime they're left coming up with "filler" and diversionary tactics.

Whereas, IMO, the early seasons were more about an atmosphere, a style, a feeling, than about "what's going to happen." The Artic trip or the Penny-Raj almost-sex were perhaps the first examples of this notion that "Oh, shit, we need to make something *happen*, they can't just sit around and talk about comic books."

Whereas, the scenes of the guys just dinking around were my *favorite part*, and that's the part that's been deemed disposable and obsolete.

[FlyingMonkey]

But fast-forward ten years from now: if I were a brand-new viewer, I'm not sure I'd want to start watching this show from the beginning if I already knew that it ended with a flurry of weddings and babies and that the pairings were set in stone by Season 4. That really takes the wind out of the sails of the early seasons.

I compared it a while ago to taping a sporting event to watch later, but before you get to watch it you find out that your team lost. So why bother watching it if you already know you're going to be disappointed in the end? That's what TBBT is to me now. We KNOW that AFF will conquer Sheldon. We KNOW that Leonard and Penny will get married. We KNOW everyone will be happily coupled up when the show ends.

But that's what the canons seem to want. It's comfortable to them. They can pretend to get all upset over the predictable breakups/makeups/crises that will be served up in the next three seasons, but they KNOW they're going to get what they want in the end.

The show is now almost exclusively about the status of the relationships at the expense of the unique, fresh, intelligent, witty dialogue that characterized the original show.

[Louise]

Do we even know for certain that Sheldon has never had sex? We don't, do we? And not to get graphic, but full-on intercourse is not the only type of sexual experience a person can have. "Sex = penetration" is a pretty narrow definition, pun intended. He doesn't reveal a whole lot about his past, and probably wouldn't be inclined to talk about that sort of thing, anyway. He'd consider it irrelevant.

Likewise, if Amy has had thousands of O's from a machine, I don't see how she's a virgin in any meaningful sense. Virginity is kind of a made-up artificial concept.

[Louise]

The point is not that I think all of these characters would stay single forever and ever. I think all of them except Sheldon would eventually want some type of ongoing relationship with someone. The point is that I don't need to watch it on TV. I don't need to watch the characters going through all the typical milestones of an average life any more than I need to watch them eat and sleep.

I also think they're young enough that this should be a non-issue. There is absolutely nothing weird, sad, or alarming about being single in your late twenties & early thirties. Are we supposed to think that time is running out, for these people? Again with this bizarre Amish message that you need to marry ASAP. Life expectancy nowadays is 80 or greater. Chill out, Raj.

Canons accuse us of wanting the characters to be isolated and lonely, with loveless lives and no human contact. Like there wasn't joy and friendship in the early seasons.

I am fine with the idea that some or most of the characters would eventually form those types of bonds. (After all, I *am* the future Mrs. W ) I just have no desire to watch it happening. That was not the theme or premise of this show. That is another story for another day, and better left unsaid, or explored in fanfic.

It should be left up to the audience to imagine what happens next, at least to some degree.

Contrary to what the Canons claim, nobody here is arguing that nerdy people never get married or have children. We're just pointing out that it's optional, not mandatory, and that TV shows can focus on other subjects than romance. Other genres exist, for crying out loud. Can't we have more than one genre in our entertainment landscape??

Canons say we want the characters to be reclusive friendless hermits, and that's a strawman argument, just like all of their arguments are strawman arguments.

We're just asking to see more than one genre and more than one lifestyle depicted on TV. Apparently that's very subversive and asking too much.

[Louise]

Checklist of an abusive relationship

Except for actual, physical hitting, I'd say A, and B, and L have done *all* of these things to some degree, wouldn't you?

I mean, not to be overly dramatic, but it's true.

http://thisisabuse.direct.gov.uk/worried-about-abuse

Some pertinent quotes:

"a partner may try to pressure you into having sex"

"They may call you names"

"They might get angry when you want to spend time with your friends"

"Do you agree with this statement: My partner never tries to control what I wear, where I go or what I do?"

"Does your partner respect your feelings, your opinions and your friends?"

"When someone loves you, you feel safe, respected and free to be yourself. You shouldn't be made to feel scared, intimidated or controlled."

"Does your partner let you feel comfortable being yourself?"

TBBT ships fail on all counts. The occasional "sweet" moments are not enough to make up for that.

Personally, I find the "nice" moments in these ships to be very phony and saccharine...

ETA: Ohhhhhhh, I found the best part! "My partner is abusive, but at least I’ve got a partner, right?"

That is TPTB's motto. It is their modus operandi, for real.

[SpaceAnJL]

Part of the reason I dislike Leonard is that his initial behaviour sent up red flags for me. Stealing somebody's mail as an excuse to make them come and see you? That initial fixation on Penny, and the immediate mental leap to 'sex/babies', was a little too desperate, as was his awkward assumption that first date would lead to immediate sex. He actually ticks a lot of the list for nascent stalker behaviour, and I'm not sure why anyone, particularly female viewers who may have experienced this, would find it amusing or attractive. He's definitely a bully, and I wouldn't put it past him to hit Penny at some point in the future - or at least, grip her arm tight enough to leave bruises.

edit: Sheldon is definitely in an abusive relationship. This show is playing the pressure cooker of bad relationship moments that lead to domestic violence and abuse for laughs. Sooner or later, B will hit H with a kitchen implement and it will be 'funny'. Which, no.

[Louise]

He actually ticks a lot of the list for nascent stalker behaviour

Yeah, going immediately to "our babies would be smart and beautiful" is presumptuous at best, and at worst shows some pretty weird thought-patterns.

Sooner or later, B will hit H with a kitchen implement and it will be 'funny'. Which, no.

Oh, totally. You know, IIRC, there was an episode of "King of Queens" where Carrie pushes her husband down the stairs. Can you IMAGINE the reaction if the roles were reversed? Yeah, that's a sitcom for you

But I put the quote about sexual pressure first, because of Shamy...

[devilbk]

I want to approve of all of the comments above but clicking "Like" makes me feel skeevy.

[Nutz]

Do we even know for certain that Sheldon has never had sex? We don't, do we? And not to get graphic, but full-on intercourse is not the only type of sexual experience a person can have. "Sex = penetration" is a pretty narrow definition, pun intended. He doesn't reveal a whole lot about his past, and probably wouldn't be inclined to talk about that sort of thing, anyway. He'd consider it irrelevant.

Likewise, if Amy has had thousands of O's from a machine, I don't see how she's a virgin in any meaningful sense. Virginity is kind of a made-up artificial concept.

I would say the chances of Sheldon having some sort of sex is pretty high considering he was alone at college and spent at least some time alone in Europe while he was guest lecturing and considering his Child progeny status, he probably spent a lot of time being brought up to donors like a prized cow. Just think, Shirley Temple was only 12 when producers started trying to "get her on the casting couch".

Between teen hormones raging and his lack of social skills, he was probably easy prey and was most likely molested (or at least used) by another student, Facilty Member, or donor. This would explain his need for complete control, twitching when someone touched him.

Which makes Amy's manipulation sand sexy toddler talk even creepier.