Hate Shamy?
#11
To me, Shamy reflects how little the writers understand what it is they created when they came up with Sheldon Cooper. To them at this point, Sheldon is a whack job, stubborn, egocentric. But he is also imaginative, loyal, his own man. Two sides of the same coin. Amy in season 4 saw Sheldon's qualities as beneficial to who he was. The viewers also approved, as could be seen by his break-out character power over the show. Then someone flicked a switch and Sheldon's strengths--both personally and in the broader context of the show's humour--were flipped to become negatives. Amy in particular has been nothing more than a sledgehammer employed by the writers in order to reconstruct Sheldon. She has lost all insight into Sheldon--a reflection of the writers, perhaps?--and is instead shaping him to be someone he isn't. Because he is easier this way--subservient to Amy, and a cinch to write. Shamy signaled the start of comedic laziness. One that has gone on to poison the rest of the characters, and the show, itself.

But more dangerously--to me, at least--Shamy signaled a switch in communal/situational humour to stinging personal attacks. It became open season to target Sheldon. Yes, early season Sheldon was often obtuse when it came to other peoples' feelings, but the difference is that his comments aren't personal. Like he told Howard, he has every respect for Howard's abilities as an engineer--he just doesn't think engineering is worth two beans.

Amy's deconstruction of Sheldon reflects her desire for normalcy above all else. Give up your dreams, your hobbies, your eccentricities if you want a partner, children, love. What a horrible lesson! Forget the fact that there are plenty of real life eccentrics who are happily married, there are also those who are comfortably single. I also think they provide a much wider net for comedic moments. Something which the show is in sore need of.
Let's go exploring!
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#12
Hey all. I'm new to the site(Keeping the name because it is oh so appropriate). I hated Shamy, because ultimately, Amy and Sheldon wanted two different things. Sheldon wanted a partner of the mind and /only/ the mind. He didn't care for sex. Amy was fine with that...at first. But then she quickly realized that she /wanted/ sex, a partner or relationship of the body. The 'mind' bit seemed to be forgotten or just summarily ignored all together thereafter. And since Sheldon was her boyfriend, he MUST give it to her, even though that went against his own wishes and desires. So, rather than dissolve the relationship, as you would think two highly intelligent and generally rational people who have two different desires that are in great conflict with the others would do, Amy decided to browbeat and trick Sheldon into putting hands on her in a sexual manner and eventually, sex. That's essentially forced coercion I believe. Not a cop or lawyer here people, but the entire situation was skeevy as hell from the very start. Not to mention what I could only consider the rape of a character, metaphorically and possibly literally.

I mean, she could've just moved the #%^@ on with another scientist if she was /that/ hung up on someone of high intelligence/someone within the same sphere(Even though science has many, many different fields. And if the 3 traitors were any indication of Caltech's departments, many would've welcomed the chance to be with a women even like Amy.) or just gotten on with another guy with a one-night stand and then kept moving on until she found a guy she actually /wanted/ to be with. Yes, yes, I know her mother fed her a load of %&#! about not having sex until you're married and stuff, but c'mon! You're an adult woman, Amy! Your mother has no control over you unless you give it to her and the times have long since changed then! No one is going to care if you have sex with some random stranger beyond making sure you were safe(In both senses, as in feeling safe and practicing safe sex) during it, that it was good, and you're not pregnant beyond your mother. And if she does, time to leave her behind.

And to make things worse, everyone else in the group(Even Penny at times I think) kept telling him to essentially "man up" and do it, that her behavior was normal(HECK NO) because she never had sex before then, that he'll like it even though he explicitly stated in the past that he just wasn't interested, etc... until he gave in. They normalized(Or trivialized, if you prefer) the situation to him. Even though everything about it wasn't normal, they made it seem that way to him until he essentially thought it was and gave in! They consciously or unconsciously, maliciously or not, manipulated things around Sheldon(A man who didn't know any better because he'd never truly been in a situation like this before. Ramona didn't even come /close/!) until his prior character and convictions were all but non-existent!

Like Betram said to Stewie on Family Guy, "You'll be yesterday's hopscotch chalk on a sidewalk Stewie! Erased!", TBBT's producers and the characters had erased Sheldon's wonderful quirky personality that had been established in the very beginning of the show. And the few signs that he had been changing and growing a little as a person were quickly and forcibly changed and twisted until they were pointing him towards growing into the Sheldon of today. A Sheldon I can't even recognize. A Sheldon I never conceived of before and wish never existed in all possible timelines and in the multi-verse, just like how he says he never dances in any possible timeline.

I'm not saying Sheldon was a total innocent in their relationship together or that he was an utter saint. But Amy was the source of most of the troubles in that 'ship, certainly ALL of the sexual ones, and provided both the vehicle and thrust for the producers to utterly warp Sheldon to whatever you would call the Sheldon of today.

Would I have loved to see Shenny on the big screen/TV and would I have been cheering if it potentially lead to sex? Of course! But I would've also been fine if she and Sheldon had just stayed friends even with the chemistry they have between each other so long as it meant Sheldon would've remained largely unchanged(And by that, I mean his core personality and quirks would've stayed the same, just changed somewhat by actual character development and not the forced mess that lead to Shamy having sex and getting hitched.). Plus, I'd like to imagine that unlike Amy, Penny wouldn't have forcibly changed Sheldon. Temporized his behavior and quirks, maybe. But utterly change him and ruin him? No. And I'd imagine that Penny would've taken her time about changing Sheldon's mind on sex and made sure that Sheldon's first time /would/ be special and as perfect as she could make it with her *ahem* extensive experience.

But I would've totally been against Shenny or any relationship for Sheldon not of "the mind" if I thought it'd change him as badly as the current Shamy we got.

...Sheldon, buddy. I miss you.
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#13
Wonderful first post. You’ve explained things very clearly and it reminds me of that uncomfortable feeling I had during those first few seasons of Shamy. There’s a sense of enabling some pretty disturbing behaviour within both canon ships, enabling a stalker and then rewarding that manipulation with the love of the person they targeted. It’s seriously wrong on so many levels. What baffles me is how it’s been accepted and even seen as endearing to millions of fans of the show. It’s as though we are being asked to pretend we don’t see these flaws. And it sells. Look at how huge the show is. Yet if Sheldon were a woman I really don’t think they would have got away with it.

As far as I’m concerned the Big Bang was 3 and a half seasons. The rest is just a long winded money spinner for the executives and an unwillingness to let go. There are peppering of decent material here and there throughout some of the later ones but the decision to stretch things out and create this “romantic” story arc for Sheldon was driven by a desire to stay on air for as long as possible and not from any creative impulse.

Nowadays they have Sheldon willingly wanting to have coitus with Amy. The battle is won. She got what she set out to get. Sheldon’s love and sexuality. We’re are supposed to believe that he feels all this for real now. I just so clumsily done. And yes I would have despised Shenny if it had been written like that. Where are the media in all this? I’m continuously surprised by the lack of insight over this show and the direction it took.
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#14
Hello "Nostalgia".

Also from me congratulations to your great post. Wine

You pointed it out with enthusiasm and logic. Penny would never have tried to change Sheldon and vice versa also not. That was one of the main-points made this two together so great in their interactions.

Well, I  once read which is a feature that a relationship is really based on love. If there is a habit of the partner which make the other one sometimes angry, maybe even furious, then imagine how the partner would be without this habit. If there is the thought that he/she would be better without it, than this relationship has problems. Then there is no attraction because the other is as he/she is, but because of the desire as the other one should be. "Lenny" and "Shamy".

But if there is the result that you would even miss this, sometimes annoying habit of the other, because then it is no longer the person you like, than it is real love. And exactly this way, the "Shenny" would work.
Like "Tuesday", I would have despised "Shenny" if it had been written like "Shamy", but,...looking at it by light,...it would have been impossible to write it in this way.


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#15
(08-25-2018, 12:23 AM)Tuesday Pajamas Wrote: Wonderful first post. You’ve explained things very clearly and it reminds me of that uncomfortable feeling I had during those first few seasons of Shamy. There’s a sense of enabling some pretty disturbing behaviour within both canon ships, enabling a stalker and then rewarding that manipulation with the love of the person they targeted. It’s seriously wrong on so many levels. What baffles me is how it’s been accepted and even seen as endearing to millions of fans of the show. It’s as though we are being asked to pretend we don’t see these flaws. And it sells. Look at how huge the show is. Yet if Sheldon were a woman I really don’t think they would have got away with it.

As far as I’m concerned the Big Bang was 3 and a half seasons. The rest is just a long winded money spinner for the executives and an unwillingness to let go. There are peppering of decent material here and there throughout some of the later ones but the decision to stretch things out and create this “romantic” story arc for Sheldon was driven by a desire to stay on air for as long as possible and not from any creative impulse.

Nowadays they have Sheldon willingly wanting to have coitus with Amy. The battle is won. She got what she set out to get. Sheldon’s love and sexuality. We’re are supposed to believe that he feels all this for real now. I just so clumsily done. And yes I would have despised Shenny if it had been written like that. Where are the media in all this? I’m continuously surprised by the lack of insight over this show and the direction it took.

Unfortunately, I'm sure there are actual relationships like Lenny out there in the real world. There's a lot of messed up people willing to do a lot of messed up &^%* out there in the world. What gets me is that TBBT basically, like I said about the Shamy ship, normalized/trivialized the whole situation about Lenny but unlike Sheldon's situation, WE the audience as a whole should know better. Yet people still cheer on the Lenny/Shamy ships even with all the disgusting, manipulative stuff both Leonard and Amy pulled in the pursuit of their "love", AKA sex.

I mean, Holloywood /loves/ to portray itself as paragons of virtue and above stuff like this(Especially in today's times even), but by allowing this to have continued for 12 freakin' seasons, going on 13 before Parsons finally put his foot down, they're basically telling the world, "If you're manipulating someone in the pursuit of sex or "love" and lying to them and stalking them, etc... it's okay and there's no consequences in doing so."! Or you can take the alternate meaning that Leonard himself demonstrated or said out loud multiple times on the show, "If you're a nerd or a similarly disaffected person and you want that hot chick that reminds you of the girl from high school whom who never had the courage to ask out/who said no to you, here's how to twist everything around and about her to get in her pants and maybe even married"! Or, "If you're a hot girl and a nerd wants you, you'll let him"! By peddling this and the continued encouragement of the establishment("#1 comedy in America?!") and the fact that the fans bought this bull&*^#, it sends a BAD MESSAGE no matter what message you take from it. And as you say, if Sheldon(Or rather, Leonard since he's the "protagonist"/Gary Stu) was a woman, Hollywood wouldn't stand for it. But since Penny/Kaley is the "love interest" rather than the protag(or a character on equal standing to the protag), it must be alright, right??? Typical Hollywood hypocrisy.

As for the lack of media being all over this stuff? I'd say it's because they know that if they even /try/ to make anything bad for the establishment/Hollywood that Hollywood doesn't approve of(I have no doubt Hollywood would've been able to cover up the Weinstein stuff, for example, if they weren't trying to prove themselves moral paragons and part of the #MeToo movement. Since they were, Harvey has to go...for now. He'll be back, just like Mel Gibson), Hollywood would make their lives hell. After all, we know how that billionaire Peter Thiel and Hulk Hogan brought down Gawker and every newspaper and online media reporter is afraid of the same thing happening to them. Also, the media thrives on celebrity drama and getting blacklisted from Hollywood is bad for your career, I'd imagine, so better to ignore all the bad things in shows like this so long as they can get access to Hollywood, right?

TBBT was at it's best the first 3, maybe 3 and a half seasons though, that's not what I'd call a high bar. With the introduction of Bernadette and Amy, the show went downhill at such a rapid pace, it's kinda hard to believe. But here we are, Raj AFAIK still not hitched and can only talk when drunk, Howard and Bernadette hitched but hating each other(Howard literally married someone who yells and screams like his ma at him and Bernadette hated everything Howard liked like his Star Wars stuff and dismissed them as "toys"), Leonard and Penny married and still pretending to be happy yet are obviously not(At least, on Penny's part), and now Sheldon and Amy are hitched and Amy's gotten everything she's ever wanted. Granted, I haven't really actually seen the full seasons past 4 so things might've changed, but that's what I've gotten from 2nd hand sources and the occasional TV Episode.

Either way, Leonard and Amy have won in their pursuit of their goal(sex) and gotten rewarded for it via hitching the people they had sex with for the rest of their lives to them. I feel sorry for Penny and Sheldon, because it must be a miserable existence to be trapped with your stalker and manipulator for the rest of your life even if you don't recognize it consciously.

Just... *Throws hands up in disgust*
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#16
(08-26-2018, 12:19 AM)Nostalgia Wrote: I mean, Holloywood /loves/ to portray itself as paragons of virtue and above stuff like this(Especially in today's times even), but by allowing this to have continued for 12 freakin' seasons, going on 13 before Parsons finally put his foot down, they're basically telling the world, "If you're manipulating someone in the pursuit of sex or "love" and lying to them and stalking them, etc... it's okay and there's no consequences in doing so."! Or you can take the alternate meaning that Leonard himself demonstrated or said out loud multiple times on the show, "If you're a nerd or a similarly disaffected person and you want that hot chick that reminds you of the girl from high school whom who never had the courage to ask out/who said no to you, here's how to twist everything around and about her to get in her pants and maybe even married"! Or, "If you're a hot girl and a nerd wants you, you'll let him"! By peddling this and the continued encouragement of the establishment("#1 comedy in America?!") and the fact that the fans bought this bull&*^#, it sends a BAD MESSAGE no matter what message you take from it. And as you say, if Sheldon(Or rather, Leonard since he's the "protagonist"/Gary Stu) was a woman, Hollywood wouldn't stand for it. But since Penny/Kaley is the "love interest" rather than the protag(or a character on equal standing to the protag), it must be alright, right??? Typical Hollywood hypocrisy.

There are so many bad messages with Shamy, I don't even know where to begin:
- Extortion into dating
- Viewing asexuality like a curable disease
- Gaslighting disguised as true love
- Stepfording disguised as character growth (turning early-season Sheldon into an obedient, submissive husband with no free will)
- Spreading ones scent over other people's possessions (that alone is worthy of a restraining order)
- Treating your spouse like one of your test subjects
- Arranged dating and marriage (is this show taking place in rural India?)
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#17
(08-26-2018, 05:41 AM)CTR69 Wrote: There are so many bad messages with Shamy, I don't even know where to begin:
- Extortion into dating
- Viewing asexuality like a curable disease
- Gaslighting disguised as true love
- Stepfording disguised as character growth (turning early-season Sheldon into an obedient, submissive husband with no free will)
- Spreading ones scent over other people's possessions (that alone is worthy of a restraining order)
- Treating your spouse like one of your test subjects
- Arranged dating and marriage (is this show taking place in rural India?)

I mean, considering how many of these things you mentioned(And I'm sure there's more we could all come up with if we brainstorm) are anathema to Hollywood's PR campaign and /especially/ the bit about asexuality considering how much they've tied themselves to LGBT+ groups and campaigns and are trying to be more inclusive...well, I don't know /why/ there isn't any backlash* over the various themes and messages the show puts out on a regular basis considering the times of today** and the reactions to people like Harvey Weinstein, the Louis C.K. stuff(Check out the recent flare up), the (relatively minor in comparison) disastrous date for Aziz Ansari, etc... And yet nothing comes of it and the /ONLY/ reason it's ending is because of Jim Parson putting his foot down and the producers not wanting to continue the show without him(It's too soon after the marriage after all. Otherwise, I'd expect them to continue the show, but with Sheldon dying in a "mad scientist/super villain accident" as mentioned early on in the show. Maybe they'd even include a step-father, to add more "drama" and be more "inclusive"(Look how diverse and accepting and woke we are!) or add another punching bag like Penny/Sheldon of today. Or maybe they'd force Raj and Amy together if Raj was still unattached by the end of season 12... Not something I'd wish on anyone, even one of the 3 traitors. Well, maybe Leonard considering how awfully similar they can be).

I mean, there's 12 seasons of this crap now, or rather, going to be once 12 ends and yet no mainstream media ever picked these blatantly obvious problems about the show up to run. I have come across random blogs and news articles and videos about TBBT and it's problems, but they're never mainstream and never go viral. Maybe they'll get the guts to go after TBBT once it ends, but I doubt it very much, as satisfying as it would be to reveal to people they have, consciously or not, been supporting these themes and messages that have cropped up over the seasons once Amy and Bernadette arrived and the show went downhill.

*Well, beyond the stuff about the media I said in my previous post. What I don't get is why there isn't any backlash by people who actually watch the show/the common people, considering I'd bet a VAST majority of people who watch the show consider themselves some version of "woke" or "feminist" or "LGBT+" or an "LGBT+ supporter".
**#MeToo and diversity movements and such like.
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