A passionate and impulsive woman.

[ricardo shillyshally]

I think BB does play with some post modern viewpoints; Jewish humour did employ sexism, but I think the shows attempts to explore alternate ways went from soft edgy, Leslie Winkle was a wonderful example of a liberated woman, and the little ironic flirt at the end is pure critique. Whereas later when they tried this role reversal; by overdosing Howard on oestrogen, and he complains about Berny wanting sex, it's reverted to the cliches of Jewish humour, but was also sexist about men.

[Louise]

I think BB does play with some post modern viewpoints; Jewish humour did employ sexism, but I think the shows attempts to explore alternate ways went from soft edgy, Leslie Winkle was a wonderful example of a liberated woman, and the little ironic flirt at the end is pure critique. Whereas later when they tried this role reversal; by overdosing Howard on oestrogen, and he complains about Berny wanting sex, it's reverted to the cliches of Jewish humour, but was also sexist about men.

That estrogen thing had to be in the top five dumbest plots this show has ever done, maybe even the top three. *Ancient* gender-stereotypes from decades and decades ago, plus...that simply couldn't happen. For a show that sorta-kinda-maybe purports to deal with science, that was just wildly unrealistic. It was just insultingly dumb.

I have mixed feelings about the scene where H and R are touching each other's chests. It's cute, and they both look good, but it's mocking the idea that there could actually be something intimate between them. It's that really immature, junior-high type of humor, rooted in fear and insecurity and nervousness, where any type of physical contact is "OMG, gaaaayyyy!!!" It makes TPTB seem like some kids sitting in the back row of 7th-grade health class and sniggering.

This show goes out of its way to portray homosexuality as inherently hilarious, ridiculous, and cringey. I'm not easily offended, and the portrayal of homosexuality on TV is not an area of particular interest to me, personally, but this show is just so blatant about it that you can't help but notice, even if you're not particularly tuned-in to those issues.

ETA: it's not my place to say so, but I think detailed discussion of any post-S5 episodes belongs in the S5-S8 thread. It doesn't belong in a Leslie thread, since she wasn't even in that episode. But, I'm not a mod. I totally get that you're making a comparison, but I don't like stumbling across references to unpleasant episodes when I'm not expecting it.

[ricardo shillyshally]

Yes but Simon even managed to work those ludicrous scenes(on oestrogen). I just thought I'd look for examples of dumbing down as show continues. It was that episode where H&R play out their 'ersatz..breast check etc'; that I thought Howard was standing up to Berny. It's almost like the writers are trying to punish him, but he starts to reassert himself, then. Leslie seems more credible than a lot of the women they've created, who do only seem to exist as potential mates for the male characters.

[Tuesday Pajamas]

Leslie was definitely more credible. Let's try to keep her thread free of other topics if we can.

I'm going to move the forums around a little next week, so there are more places to discuss changes in the show, because it's not always clear where to post.