and BAM! Howard Wolowitz

[Louise]

You will always know which Howard-related Youtube vids have a comment from me, because there will be a bunch of people going "What a perv!" and then exactly one person going "So precious..." XD

ETA: SH's movie "We'll Never Have Paris" doesn't seem especially interesting to me, but I've watched a few Youtube clips from it, and in some moments he looks about 19. (In a good way.) I dunno what they've been doing to him on BBT lately, but the contrast is noticeable.

[Louise]

Even though Gothowitz Deviation is a hilarious and fabulous ep, IMO that final scene strikes a slightly uncomfortable and ambiguous note. It's like Howard is getting an inkling that his various schemes don't work and are rather ridiculous. That's why it feels like a good segue into a deeper exploration of the H/R ship, to me. IDK. I feel like there were some moments in this show where it's like they (writers) are on the verge of delving into something more subtle or darker/edgier, but then nothing comes of it and they just don't "go there."

[Louise]

Here's the problem I have with the "Howard (New!Howard) wants kids and Bernadette doesn't" concept:

1. It's perfectly okay to not want kids, but it's unfortunate that this preference has been assigned to Bernadette, who, to anyone with ears and a brain, is a very off-putting character. The pushy, unpleasant, aggressive, domineering, henpecking woman is also the one who doesn't want children? This plays into some unfortunate stereotypes and prejudices, and makes it seem like not wanting kids is part and parcel of being an aggressive bitch who usurps her husband's position. "Uptight, driven career-woman doesn't want kids until she actually sees one, and then she melts" has been the premise of many a romcom movie. Like so much of the stuff the show has done lately, it's a dusty old cliché, and fits in perfectly with TPBT's message of "anyone who doesn't want a very conventional marriage-and-kids lifestyle is unnatural and abnormal and must be shown the error of their ways"...

2. This show was not supposed to be about weddings/marriage or babies/kids/pregnancy. This shouldn't even need to be said. If I wanted a family-themed sitcom, I'd watch a family-themed sitcom; they are numerous. What's less common is any positive portrayal of other lifestyles. IMO this is another reason why making the characters slightly younger at the start would've been a wise move for the show's longevity. Not many people in mainstream Western society believe that a 20-year-old should be in a hurry to "settle down" and they're abnormal or pathetic if they don't, and those who do have beliefs along those lines, probably wouldn't be watching this show anyway.

3. Do I think it's OOC for Howard, the real Howard, to *eventually* want to be a father? No. I think that's reasonably IC. The key word, though, is eventually. It is OOC and weird to have him so fixated on the idea, all of a sudden, and at such a young age. IIRC there was no mention of this idea until at least S5 or 6, no foreshadowing, etc. What late-twenties guy is suddenly obsessing about babies? Men don't have a biological time-limit on becoming parents, like women do. The higher a person's level of education, the later their age at marriage. These guys have spent their entire lives immersed in challenging and all-absorbing academic work. The career phase of their lives is still relatively new. The "independent young adult who is not a full-time student" phase of their lives is still relatively new, presumably. They may also have student loan debt and other onerous obligations. Who is going to jump straight from the academic grind into family life, unless it's dictated by their religious beliefs or something? What's wrong with a time of singlehood?

4. This brings us back to Ye Olde Canon Argument of "you just want the characters to die old and alone!!111!!" Um, no. I think it's reasonably plausible that some or all of these characters would *eventually* want some type of LTR or family-life. There's that pesky word again, eventually. I can buy the argument that Howard is a nurturing personality because he had to care for his Mom. What I dislike is the implication of "Meeting Bernadette made Howie a Better Man™, so now he's a nice wholesome family-oriented guy who just wants to cuddle some babies instead of being a horny tomcat."

I'm not saying men don't have parenting instincts or can't have a longing for family; that's sexist and simplistic. I can also kinda-sorta buy the argument that Howard would want a family of his own because his own childhood and home-life were rather sad or chaotic or imperfect. I can grudgingly admit that makes sense from a psychological/storytelling perspective, although I personally choose to disregard the whole "Howard's Dad" storyline because I think it's dumb and saccharine and emotionally manipulative and a bunch of other things. I also think the show overstates this idea that growing up in a single-parent home is just the most traumatic and unusual and shocking thing ever. It's not. It's how a large percentage of Americans grow up, nowadays, and it's not really noteworthy enough to warrant an explanation or a backstory or to be the focus of a storyline. Yes, it would be hugely damaging to Howard if his father had indeed rejected him, like that. But again, I think that's a melodramatic storyline and a sitcom simply doesn't need to "go there." Any perceptive viewer can tell that these clever people also have their vulnerabilities and their share of emotional baggage. That doesn't need to be spelled-out; it's implied in the acting.

Yes, yes, I can understand the angle of "Howard wants to create a better home-life than the one he had." That's a valid interpretation, but IMO it's only a valid interpretation if you buy into the "Howie's long-lost Dad" story, which I don't. My definition of "Real BBT" stops in mid-Season 3 or earlier, and that particular bit of backstory was introduced in Precious Fragmentation, which is an otherwise-good episode. It's also noteworthy that Precious Fragmentation presented the idea in an exaggerated, semi-humorous way, whereas later on, that idea was treated with deadly seriousness. At the time, it was the same type of scene as Howard crying because Winkle dumped him; it's meant to be more cute than tragic, IMO. It's meant to make us love Howard and sympathize with him but it's not supposed to be a major plot-point, at that stage. But this show is totally in the business of taking minor stuff from earlier seasons and turning it into something literal and dead-serious and Drama-Rama™.

Out of nowhere, we're given this heavy piece of backstory about a character we've already known for almost three seasons, with no prior mention of this idea and no foreshadowing. That's why it seems artificial, and that's why I simply choose not to accept it as "true." It's just dropped into our laps, kerplunk.

So, what do we have, here? We have a message of "Nice, caring, loving people want a traditional family. Your only other option is to be promiscuous and sleazy and morally degenerate, which will ultimately result in being a lonely lost soul." The show loves these false dichotomies and these very black-and-white, either-or scenarios. Can't be a loving, caring person and be single, or have some other type of relationship, or wait until later in life to have a relationship.

Bernadette is so awesome that she will cause you to do an immediate 180 from stalking supermodels and wandering through bars, to cuddling babies!!!11!! But *she* doesn't want kids, because she's a cold-hearted witch! No, wait, she's a career-woman, who is more rational and successful than Howard, and she understands how much hard work parenthood would actually entail, whereas Howard doesn't, because he's a man-child!!!!

Maddona...Whore...Madonna..Whore...Madonna..Whore. Rinse and repeat.

My personal headcanon is that Howard, the real Howard, would either be with Raj, or would happily be a lifelong bachelor and have relationships that were friendly and mutually beneficial, but not "serious." Or, he might wait until his forties or fifties to have an LTR, and might be content to have an LTR without being formally married. That's just me. In a fictional context, I don't care for the topic of parenthood, and it kinda squicks me to think of my fave characters in that light. But again, that's just my personal headcanon. I think it's reasonably IC that he, or the others, might eventually want to get married and have kids. But here comes the million-dollar point: we, the viewers, do not need to see that part of the story.

This takes me back to my previous post: I don't want to see a character's entire lifespan. I just want to see a brief snapshot of their life, a little glimpse into their world. I just want to be a fly on the wall for a few days or months.

Nobody here, to my knowledge, is arguing that nerdy/eccentric people should never get married or have kids. I *am* arguing that those topics don't need to be televised. They don't make for interesting viewing. That is another story, for another day. They belong to a different genre, a different type of TV program. "And they all lived happily ever after" does not need to be spelled-out; it can just be implied. Never mind that these "relationships" are far from happy or idyllic.

If this show had ended with all characters single, or just casually dating someone, then the shippy types would be free to imagine that weddings and babies ensued, while the "noromo" (as distinct from #nohomo) types would be free to imagine other outcomes. Everybody's happy, right? No, only the people intelligent enough to understand that fiction is fictional are happy, because the others need to see weddings, or else they believe that the characters are laying dead in a ditch.

(along these same lines, I recently saw a Tumblr post to the effect of "Simon is a good father, so Howard will be a good father." The separation of actor and character is not strong, with this one...)

Do I think it's reasonably IC that Howard would want to be a father? Yes. That's not my personal preference or my personal headcanon, but I think it's within the realm of possibility and within the bounds of consistent characterization. What's OOC is the way they've made him obsessed with the idea, out of the blue, to the point where it becomes a storyline and a primary feature of his character. The "Howard is still a child himself, psychologically" thing is way gross and insulting and squicky, as is the implication that women always understand children better, or make better parents. And I sure as FUCK do not believe that Vintage!Howard would want to be a stay-at-home dad, not after he worked and studied so hard for his career*.

TL;DR: There's a major difference between "Yeah, maybe I could have a family someday" (with emphasis on *someday*) versus "OMG, I'm 27, time to fill rooms with offspring!!!111!!!"

*a career at which, yes, he would be making a nice salary, if the writers weren't sniffing copious amounts of glue.

[Trust No One]

Here's the problem I have with the "Howard (New!Howard) wants kids and Bernadette doesn't" concept:

<Edited out massive and brilliant post by Louise for clarity's sake - Major Gripe>

TL;DR: There's a major difference between "Yeah, maybe I could have a family someday" (with emphasis on *someday*) versus "OMG, I'm 27, time to fill rooms with offspring!!!111!!!"

*a career at which, yes, he would be making a nice salary, if the writers weren't sniffing copious amounts of glue.

There is so much right with this post Louise.

[ricardo shillyshally]

I was thinking that each character, when they want to impress, talk of their best qualities. With Sheldon it's his IQ and ostrich. Howard's impressions are one of his. I'm sure you all saw, that if you should want to, you too can sound like Stephen Hawking, thanks to Intel software.

[Louise]

Okay, correct me if I've gotten the details or the time-line wrong, because there are large chunks of S3 that I've only watched once. But here are some reasons why, IMO, the H/B relationship was a negative from the very start, and it's NOT a case of "this ship used to be sweet and cute and then it turned sour." 

In "The Vengeance Formulation",  H. makes the mistake of asking B. to marry him and then makes a big to-do of singing to her at the Cheesecake Factory. (Ugh, singing.)  Okay, fair enough, he made the mistake of being over-eager. But she *asked* him about the status of their relationship...and that's just THREE episodes after they first met.  Who asks "What is the status of this relationship?" after knowing each other for perhaps a few weeks?  Does time in the BBT-verse move faster than time IRL?  How much time do those three episodes represent, in-universe? Nowadays the show seems to be operating in real time. So, again, I'm guessing H and B had known each other for maybe a month or less, at that point. Maybe two months, at the outside. And they're supposed to be having conversations about "where is this going"?? Also, I think the CCF scene is cringey and OOC.  Funny on the surface, maybe, not when you really think about the context.

Twelve episodes later, in "Plimpton", we're told that "H and B broke up weeks ago."  Again, we don't know how time operates in BBT-verse, but Vengeance aired in November and Plimpton aired in May, so H and B had known each other for perhaps 6 months. 

Then, in S4, The Bitch is Back™.  In Hot Troll Deviation, we're told why H and B broke up. If H and B have known each other for perhaps nine months to one year, at this point, it's arguable that they've broken up two or three times already, if you count their various tiffs, like when H. was jealous of Leonard.

(excuse me while I laugh until I puke at the thought of Fabulous Howard Wolowitz, my cutie pie, being envious of someone like Leonard.)

Imaginary Katee Sackhoff™ tells H. that's he's ignoring and neglecting B.  A few months earlier, (Vengeance) we were told that he's moving too fast and being over-eager. So, WHAT exactly was the poor guy supposed to do? Exactly WHEN was this relationship supposed to become serious? In Vengeance, it's too soon, but in Hot Troll it's implied that he's being flaky and commitment-phobic. And he's known her for perhaps one year at the very most, at this point, assuming that one season equals one year of RL time.  And she hasn't appeared in every episode, so apparently they don't spend tons of time together, and they've already broken up twice, and all of their interactions seem to consist of a fight or misunderstanding or conflict of some kind.  In Vengeance he's too clingy, and we're again told that he's too clingy in Gorilla Experiment, but in Hot Troll we're told that he's not committed ENOUGH???

To summarize:

1. B seems very fond of asking for a State of the Union Address about "where is this relationship going"??  This happens at least twice, when she and H have been dating for less than one season. But *he's* the clingy one. 

2. In Vengeance and Gorilla, we're told that he's moving too fast, but by the time of Plimpton, they've broken up because he WASN'T solely and fully committed to her.

3.  In Stag Night (boo, hiss) Bernadette is SHOCKED, SHOCKED, I TELL YOU that Howard likes to engage in some slightly unusual sexual behaviors, but that's *exactly* the type of behavior that caused her to break up with him in late Season 3, according to Hot Troll.  After dating this guy for THREE years, she does not know him. She apparently knows nothing about his personal standards of behavior, his values/morals, his habits and pastimes or his sexual history.

4. The message of Hot Troll is that Howard needs to make a commitment to Bernadette. At this point, he has known this person for perhaps nine months to one year, and they've been dating off and on, not continuously. The progression of this relationship has not been steady and stable.  Rather, their every encounter seems to consist of B. informing H. that he unknowingly did something wrong.  It's a viable theory that they've been apart for as much time as they've been together, since their first meeting in CCC. 

5. The theme of this ship, from Day 1, has been "Howard is always wrong, no matter what he does."

6. This ship and this character have always sucked. There is no "good Bernadette from Season 3."  This ship has always been LOADED with mixed messages and double standards, and the takeaway is that you're supposed to instantly commit yourself to someone you've known for a few months.  Bernadette has ALWAYS wanted this relationship to happen *on her terms*, and she has ALWAYS tried to influence, alter, or control Howard's behavior and his decisions.  She's apparently got a mental time-line of how a relationship ought to progress, which she refuses to tell him about, because he's always either too early or too late, seemingly.  

7.  H and B don't know each other at all, they don't communicate, they have *never* communicated, and B. expects H. to read her mind, or else he's in trouble.

8. B. can see that H. is a socially awkward guy, but then acts surprised when he doesn't always behave in a conventional manner or make the right decisions, or intuitively know what she wants and when she wants it and how she expects him to behave. This ship is one big game of "Gotcha!" where Bernadette passively waits for Howard to make a mistake and then gets angry about it, instead of *telling* him what she wants, or **communicating** about the situation. 

8. They got married without ever having a conversation about what their personal expectations are or what their definition of a relationship is.

9. This is SO FUCKED UP, from the very, very start.

Stuff like this is why, I, personally, cannot consider Season 3 to be fully Vintage.  "My" BBT ends before the introduction of B.  There is no "This ship was nice at first."  No, it was always full of bizarre double standards and bizarre ideas about how and when a relationship is supposed to proceed.

Remember, children: marry the very first person who crosses your path, but don't act too excited about it, because that's dorky. 
It is literally impossible to live up to TPTB's standards of "correct" behavior.

[Louise]

Previous post, continued: 

What really rubs me the wrong way about the H/B ship is that from the very start, most of their interactions seem to consist of him apologizing to her. She keeps on asking for some declaration of commitment and asking "where do you see this relationship going?", but she doesn't *tell* him about her feelings, expectations, and priorities.* A rather sheltered and socially awkward guy who has apparently never had an LTR before, is supposed to magically know what to do and how to behave, and if he doesn't then he's an insensitive clod. B's behavior is inconsistent and hard to to understand, but the show tells us that's H's fault.

*She doesn't *have* feelings and thoughts and an inner life, because she's a plot device, not a person. Season 3-4 Bernadette might not be a screaming psycho, but she's clear evidence that the writers think women are these fickle, illogical, constantly-changing creatures who can never be understood, because they're not *human.*  They behave in random and nonsensical ways, they don't have any identifiable motivations, they just *exist* and their minds are an opaque mystery, or a blank. They just "want a commitment", even to a man they don't particularly like, because they're joyless fun-killers and they're out to "catch a man."  They don't have sexual desires and they don't need to actually get to know someone, because a man is just a generic item to be plugged into their goal of a traditional lifestyle with a wedding and a white picket fence. And they're all the same.

[SpaceAnJL]

And looking at it laid out like this, it has basically been a dry run for the S/A clusterfuck. Same dynamics, same unpleasant, incoherent expectations and behaviours.

I think H&B had their storyline hijacked, and were used as a test run once the decision was made to foist AFF onto the show. She was a hideous one scene joke that inexplicably refused to die. H&B could and should have been the beta couple to the dreary canon of L/P, but again, the choice was made to use appalling stereotypes and lazy writing. Instead of the supportive kooky odd couple, they've become the shrewish shiksa and the henpecked man child. The writers seem incapable of writing sympathetic characters, but there is an addition layer of unpleasantness to the way they write women.

[Louise]

And looking at it laid out like this, it has basically been a dry run for the S/A clusterfuck.  Same dynamics, same unpleasant, incoherent expectations and behaviours.

Yes. My point is, I don't believe this ship ever had potential. Why does she like him? Why does he like her? They don't *know* anything about each other.  


S3-S4 Bernadette might not be actively cruel or aggressive or shouty, but she seems to disapprove of pretty much every decision H. makes, which means they are not on the same page, and she does not respect his feelings or his perspective or where he's coming from. He's not *allowed* to have a point of view; the message is that he needs to just "get with the program" and do whatever she wants. He's not allowed to have doubts or questions or hesitations. This show specifically teaches people to distrust their own judgment and ignore their own gut instincts and operate on blind faith, which IMO is a hugely dangerous message. The show gaslights its own characters; the narrative says that their feelings are not legitimate. To have any doubts or questions is portrayed as selfish and immature. H. had no power in this situation, from the start. See also the absolutely god-awful "pre-nup" conversation.

And the timeline is bizarre. She wants to know about their future, three episodes after meeting him, but she finds his behavior over-eager. We're told he's moving too fast, then a few episodes later, the narrative is chastising him for being indecisive and commitment-phobic. 

This is why I take exception to people who think H/B is not as bad as the other ships, or statements like "Everything would be okay if B. went back to being sweet and nice."  No.  It's not, and it wouldn't.  This relationship is so *hollow.* And  I admit to having an intense gut-level dislike of MR*; I think she simply isn't a fit for the show, but if she'd been a minor character and not attached to any of the guys, that might've been tolerable. 

Even if the H/B relationship had remained the way it was in S3-S4, I'd probably still stop watching the show.  I'm not on board with anything that interferes with H&R as a duo--and yes, that's because I'm a shipper.

I'm not emotionally invested in Shenny, but I'd never presume to make light of that situation or treat it as unimportant. We each have different things that are important to us, here, and I think we do a really good job of being respectful to each other, on that. I'm sure there are some Nostalgics, and casual viewers, who had no strong objections to Bernadette until Season 7 or 8, but my point here is that I can see the seeds of the problems, from her very first appearance. To make a comparison, I personally have no strong feelings one way or another about Leonard, but I'm aware that some people find that pairing really disturbing, and so I don't go around saying "Well, if they just talked it out and were nicer to each other, everything would be peachy." I'm not cool with Shennies who are so exclusively focused on their ship that they think H/B is fixable or not a big deal.

And this reminds me of another good quote I heard recently: "Someone does not have to be a bad person, in order to be the wrong person for *you*" Just because someone's capable of being superficially "nice" doesn't mean you need to marry them. I think we're seeing sort of a female version of the "Nice Guy" concept, with A and B: S and H are supposed to be grateful that any woman would even deign to interact with them, and H is supposedly so repulsive that he ought to count himself "lucky" to find a woman who will show him *any* degree of affection.


*as an actor, not as a person, obviously.

[Kimk26]

Was just on youtube, looking for the cold open from season 1, when Howard and the guys enable cable access to control their stereo and other electronics. Found this collection of that and other great cold opens from the first season. Again, makes me wish that these guys really existed. Especially Howard!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2FjLcEqVN4