Season 8 Musings

[Louise]

I loathe that scene with all my soul...Possibly an overstatement...Suffice to say it represents everything I detest about S5.

Your feelings about that season and those events are totally understandable and justified. I would offer some kind of pretend-remedy, but it wouldn't be much of a comfort, I know. When you list all of those events, like that, the awfulness of it becomes so obvious.

One almost wants to use a word like "desecration" to describe what's happened to Sheldon.

I would not minimize or dismiss anyone's feelings about their favorite character.

btw, I like that scene because of H &R being silly, not because of Sheldon.

[Louise]

Y'know, sometimes I can hardly believe that we Nostalgics are being made to feel apologetic just for insisting that the primary purpose of a *sitcom* is to be....wait for it....funny.

[Louise]

Sometimes I find it hard to wrap my mind around the fact that this show has been in "post-shark mode" for at least three or four years, depending on who you ask. I'm not being sarcastic; I literally find it hard to comprehend. Like I said in the chat box; at this point there have been more bad seasons than good. IMO every season has had individual scenes/moments that were good, but I haven't watched a full season since 3.
This is not the same show from 2007. It's just *not.* Why do they insist that it is? This is an unacknowledged re-make.
What an utter, useless waste. My favorite character has been lost to this stupid, corny, hacky ship with a cardboard "character" for SIX years. I could cry.

[Louise]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread, but just for my own interest, I added-up the repetitive episode titles, at least some of them:

Vortex: 4

Catalyst: 3

Insufficiency: 3

Reaction: 4

Excitation: 4

There were many others that were used twice, including Hypothesis, Paradigm, and Experiment, and there were probably some others that I missed.

Now, granted, this is not a big deal and I wouldn't care what the episodes were called, as long as they were GOOD, but doesn't this seem symptomatic of lazy writing in general? Are the writers unable to Google a list of science terms, or a list of words ending in "-ation"? Are they unable to crack open the glossary of a high school science textbook? I like the format of this show's titles, I think it is/was cute and clever, but the repetition is getting slightly ridiculous. I feel like there's a Vortex and an Insufficiency once every three or four episodes, now.

Maybe I'll keep a running tally of this stuff, and see. I dunno, I know this is a very, very minor thing, but it's representative of how lazy the writing has become, don't you think? Isn't the title supposed to be the easiest part?

[Louise]

So, now we have Stuart living at Howard's Mom's house...when we could've had...drumroll, please...Howard living at his mom's house??? Where do I get these ideas??

It's really weird how they (TPTB) keep destroying things and then creating replicas/imitations/re-enactments of them. Stuart-Raj instead of Howard-Raj. S/P moments re-created with Shamy. (I cannot personally recall these moments, but I've heard they exist, so someone can help me out and specify, here.)

If Penny no longer works at the CCF, where will they hang out? Will they always, always, always be at the apartment? Apparently so. Yeah, that's a step forward. Not.

No more Oversexed Howard, but Oversexed Amy is just peachy, or characters who are genuinely perverted, like this Emily person who is turned on by violence? Yeah, that's a brilliant match for Raj, who is gentle and refined, or at least has pretensions of being so.

Don't get me wrong, I like Stuart, and I'm fine with him getting a storyline, but...they keep discarding things and then giving us the New Coke version. Why???

If these ideas work, if these concepts are good, then why wouldn't you **keep** them, instead of recycling them and getting diminished returns?

On a somewhat related note, they claim that the characters and the show itself have grown and matured, yet the humor and the language are more vulgar than ever. There was *some* vulgarity in the earlier seasons, penis jokes and what-not, but not as much, it seems to me.

It's the hypocrisy that gets me. TPTB want to have it both ways: they want to claim they're presenting this beautiful, meaningful storyline about personal betterment and growth and maturity, about love and friendship, and then they want their breast jokes and shit jokes. They blow hot and cold with the same breath. It makes their preachiness and their moralizing very hard to take.

So, Howard's corny innuendos like "hit that thang!" were offensive and perverted and gross, but let's have all these jokes about spitting and diarrhea and STDs?

S2 Howard: "Penny, let me take this opportunity to point out that you are looking particularly ravishing today."

Wow, so offensive, so threatening, this guy should be locked up.

If Sheldon said that to Amy, the Canons would be weeping with joy. There are probably women who would cut off a limb just to hear a man say that, to them. He's almost...courtly, almost gentlemanly. I bet he talks that way even when he's at a strip club. Yet TPTB would have us believe that he looked at Penny and said something like "Hey, bitch, show us your tits."

S5 Amy: Says that she enjoys going to the gynecologist, et cetera, et cetera. Jokes about "diseased genitalia", etc.

I guess my point is, what's up with this idea that the old versions of certain jokes were offensive, and the new versions aren't, even though they're actually way, way more vulgar?

And what's up with discarding/eliminating certain elements of the show, labeling them as obsolete and stigmatizing them, then reincarnating them in a lesser version?

ETA: I dare some intrepid fanfic writer to take some of the sexual things Howard said/did in the early seasons, and subtly incorporate them into a Shamy story where Sheldon says them to Amy, and watch the reviews roll in about how sweet and lovely and romantic this is. I might even do it, myself

[Louise]

Y'know, it just hit me, all of a sudden: one of the key problems with the way they're portraying the characters now, is this: we've gone from "the guys are awkward in certain specific social situations, like meeting girls", to "the guys are awkward/clumsy/useless at general life-skills."

Sheldon can't go anywhere without getting his pants stolen, Howard can't throw a baseball, or even get a machine to do it for him, properly.

As many of us have noted before, this show has now conflated "child-like" with "child-ish." It's funny and cute and endearing when the guys are child-like. It's cringey when they're child-ish. It's a subtle difference, but it's one of those "I know it when I see it" things. Child-like was when Sheldon tried to make friends with a kid at the bookstore over their mutual fondness for monkeys. That was cute. Child-ish Sheldon is....well, you name it, there are plenty of choices. Child-like Howard likes chocolate milk and juice boxes. That's cute. Child-ish Howard can't do anything without B's help and supervision.

I have no doubt that Howard's mother spoiled him a lot. But, if she suddenly refused to do his laundry, I don't think he'd start wandering around in sweats. He obviously takes great pride in his clothes and his appearance and self-presentation; this is a major part of his character. He'd probably just take a whole heap of stuff to the dry-cleaner, belt buckles and all. Also, someone who grew up in his circumstances is not going to be wasteful with money. It's never mentioned if his mother has a job; I wouldn't be surprised if she was collecting some kind of assistance, at some point.

Sheldon isn't supposed to be Rain Man. Too much idiot, not enough Savant.

Sheldon lived in that apartment alone, before Leonard. He even lived in Europe. He left home at a very young age, and presumably nothing terrible befell him. Howard went to M.I.T. without his mother or what's-her-face.

Sheldon has saved so much money that he's able to lend some to Penny without caring about when, if ever, he might get it back. Clearly, he is responsible. (This also shows a generous nature.)
Yes, Sheldon's idiosyncrasies can get him into trouble, but that's just comedy, when it's handled correctly.

Being an introvert or being hesitant in social situations is NOT the same thing as being unable to take care of yourself and function in everyday life as an adult. There are people with much worse issues/neuroses/disorders than the guys, who can function in everyday life and be self-sufficient.

(Also, Raj comes from a wealthy family with servants, so he's presumably been spoiled/sheltered to some degree, yet he does okay with having his own apartment. Not sure what's up with that.)

They're almost portraying Sheldon as someone who would have to be institutionalized if Leonard and others weren't around to keep an eye on him. I know they've never given a specific label to Sheldon's eccentricities, and I'm glad they haven't, but anyone who is similar to him should be pretty offended, at this point. The reciprocity of Sheldon and Leonard's friendship is supposed to be endearing: Leonard looks out for him and smooths the way for him, but that doesn't mean Sheldon would be utterly lost without him, right?

"The guys can't make small-talk at a party" has become "the guys can't feed and clothe themselves." I don't like large gatherings full of people I don't know, either. That's a pretty relatable thing. I wouldn't want to talk to those donors at some gala, either.

Even if your work is purely theoretical, obtaining an advanced degree involves practical skills. These characters have a level of educational achievement which puts them in the top one percent of the nation. You do not drift through college acting like a doofus and being oblivious, if you want to graduate. You have to meet deadlines, have time-management, start a task and complete it, make plans, keep track of many details, etc.

I am willing to believe that the guys freeze-up around a pretty girl or that Sheldon dislikes being made to schmooze with strangers. I am not willing to believe that they couldn't survive without their "handlers", or most of all, that their academic/scientific/intellectual skills don't transfer to other areas of life. In fact, I think they would come up with some pretty ingenious and creative solutions to everyday problems: solutions that might be overly-elaborate or a bit comical, but clever.

This is more than just the old "husbands are dumb, wives/girlfriends are wise" chestnut. It's making intellectuals look dumb, so as to massage the egos of the actual dumb people who resent intelligence and achievement. Crabs in a bucket mentality.

The guys' weaknesses in certain areas are supposed to be handled with a light touch and be a source of comedy. We've gone from that, to the idea that they can't do *anything* right.

It would be a lot funnier, and kinder, if they were shown coming up with kooky and overly-elaborate, yet clever, solutions to life's little challenges.

I get the whole "absent-minded professor" trope, but this is taking it too far.

ETA: like I said before, I'd imagine the guys would do just fine at some non-contact sports, like golf, where their knowledge of things like angles/speed/direction might even be helpful. I could see them doing okay at any number of semi-physical things. Not great, but okay-ish. IIRC, we know all of them except possibly Leonard can dance, for example.

[FlyingMonkey]

This is more than just the old "husbands are dumb, wives/girlfriends are wise" chestnut.

That IS the current show in one sentence. And it's very easy to write because it's been done 10,000 times before!!!

[Nutz]

Don't forget the boys used to go Paintballing every weekend, they used to have Kite Fights in the Park, Sheldon has mentioned his love of mini-golfing, and they have mentioned going to join the Lord of the Rings LARP again (Sheldon even had his Gandolf hat). These guys did not just sit on the couch (like they do now), they used to be quite active until TPTB decided that to be "normal" all that activity had to stop.

[Louise]

Lately I feel like the show has crossed some sort of boundary, where things have gone beyond "these characters have changed a lot" and into things being utterly topsy-turvy. It's like this stuff can't be taken seriously on any level or analyzed/parsed in any rational way.

It's like this might as well be a sketch-comedy show with no attempt at continuity from one scene to the next. I feel like it's no longer just "I disagree with these decisions", it's "these decisions don't make sense from any angle, even if you're on board with the canon."

For them to f*ck around with H and R's friendship is the last straw in my large bundle of last straws. You'd tie yourself up in knots, trying to come up with a plausible in-universe explanation for why the characters behave the way they do.

I dunno, I feel like it's gone beyond "I don't like this particular storyline" or "I don't like this particular pairing." It's like all bets are off and they've just thrown everything into the wind.

Also, as I mentioned in the chat box, TPTB seem to love "going there" with the icky Oedipal themes and the "creepy dysfunctional families" stuff. One could honestly say that various types of emotional incest are this show's main theme, now. I find that to be very dark and off-putting territory for a mainstream sitcom that is presumably aiming to please the masses. Lorre or someone needs a counselor, not a TV show.

I dunno, it's like there's just zero attempt at internal logic or realistic human behavior.
I wish they would just give these characters different names.

[wellplayedpenny]

It's why I shake my head at the insistence of maintaining the flagship idea--Lenny--even when much more viable and more importantly *entertaining* scenarios were at play in the beginning. Perhaps this upheaval we've seen is necessary because reality sure had to warp in order for Leonard and Penny to become a legitimate couple. Just watching the opening of s8 the Lenny are depicted as having their 'problems' but are in no way as whacked out as Shamy and no where near as psychotic as Howardette. Massive holes like Penny having nothing in common with Leonard are glossed over with an 'awww' moment about being scared together, which may pluck at the heartstrings but in no way addresses the problem! It's like saying they're homeless and Leonard takes Penny's hand and says, 'with you, I'm always home.' Well, buddy, you're still getting snowed on as you freeze your asses off.

There have been fundamental changes to the show but one of the biggest to me has been the need for justification.** They have a relationship agenda and in order to support it they're willing to manipulate or plain ol' ignore continuity in order to make their relationships make sense. I've always viewed Sheldon as the canary in the coal mine as he is such a precise character (for lack of a better term) and the way his quirks and mannerisms have turned on and off like a light in order to fit the moment accurately foreshadowed the 'jump the shark' moments of the show itself as it tries to right the (relation)ships.

So in essence there is a framework and everything else is arbitrary. This is what makes the current show so clunky. Early seasons had a basic frame--four scientists friends meet a female neighbor--and from there the possibilities were endless. Even Leonard's drooling over Penny was a possibility; it's that it somehow surpassed the Shenny Jim/Kaley chemistry which makes it unbelievable. The later seasons have a frame that'd rival an M-1 tank and is just as maneuverable. BBT in its early seasons isn't a sketch comedy but there was a feeling of the absurd as the group could be doing anything from secret agent laser chess to bouncing a laser off the moon. Nothing needed to be justified. They did it because it was f-u-n and that's what made it fun for the viewer. Anything was possible.

**The justification need is seen in the Arctic episode as Sheldon being a jerk is reason enough for Leonard et al to do what they did. It's part of what makes this episode insufferable--there's no penalty for their action, no punishment, and in fact Leonard gets the girl in the end. The answer 'because it's Sheldon' as justification for doing shitty things was a stand-by that got even more sinister as the scripts got meaner.