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+---- Thread: The rest of Season Grate (Eps 8.07-8.15 and 8.17) (/showthread.php?tid=251)
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Trust No One - 12-19-2014
(12-16-2014, 08:34 PM)Tuesday Pajamas Wrote: And 6 of the top 20 episodes are still Shenny MAIN stories, even though Amy has been on the show 4 years. I'll Shenny blossom that!
Yet TPTB continue to deny the Shenny despite all the evidence as to how popular it is?
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Idle Miscreant - 12-20-2014
Like Ricardo, I am in the bargaining stage. To which end I have been trawling through IMDB trying to pinpoint the crux of the problem. (Pinpointing a crux sounds highly painful, doesn’t it…) Yet the more I look into the credits of these episodes, the more gloomy and confused I feel.
The same 10 or so minds which created the brilliance of the early seasons, the Sheldonian spiels, the surrealism, innocence and charm, are now not striking the same chords with our particular lot, with this particular show. So what has occurred?
Well to start with, brilliance is certainly still occurring in segments. Look at the plots of the past few years. Remove the majority that are relationship ones. Are the few remaining not inspired? There is surrealism present in the Darth Vader convention episode, the Proton/Dagobah, the 43 Peculiarity wormhole, the Transporter and Tiny Spock, the cannonading of Sheldon by Santa. And so forth. There are odd unusual stories, such as Monster Isolation (the first Penny plot since Barbarian) and Cooper Extraction (even if it was strangely unpleasant in execution. Why were they so mean to each other?)
What falters, invariably, are the relationship episodes, and as these relationships have come to consume the characters, making them either hectoring, weary or unrecognisable, the characters as a whole falter as well, and this staggers over into the non-relationship episodes.
I am pondering why this troubles us so. I know there are a number of literary sods here, and I suspect in those cases there might be a sense of impotence as regards the actions of characters we cannot control, unlike in our novels and stories.
However, beyond that and regardless of occupation, there seems a genuine despair at these characters’ trajectories. Not simply because they are in discordance with our wishes, (that would not cause such festering grievances) but perhaps because they are inherently untruthful, and thereby going against some greater artistic principle.
(Excuse late night dithery pontiwankification…Half my brain is asleep without me.)
These trajectories have been decreed by some unknown agent, and the writers must do what they can. To some great degree they have triumphed. The plots, as said, are frequently inspired. Provided they are not romantic. There the inherent wrongness of the partner choices (or in Sheldon’s case his very presence in a relationship), and the “arc” therefore of those two characters, destroys any attempt at aesthetic virtue or poetic truth before they even begin. It is not their fault. It is an impossible position. No writer, however brilliant, can salvage a character from an improper fate. And as far as I understand, their fates do not lie within their purview.
These “poetic truths” are often as simple as an inversion of predicament. Off the top of my bleary head (although there’s a whole post on this somewhere), romantically speaking;
Penny, as a character defined by her appearance, should end up with someone who is blind to it. Assuring therefore, that they are with her for her intrinsic nature. Also rendering her main weapon useless.
Leonard, his life previously dictated by his need for approval from others, should learn his own worth, and to acknowledge his passions rather than be ashamed of them, and thus ultimately pardon or approve himself.
As for Sheldon, much as it annoys me, because I dislike romance, the poetic truth of a man governed by his mind could conceivably be to be conquered by his heart, or at least engage in warfare with it. However, it absolutely cannot be over a person who is an intentional copy of himself. It must be on account of, and with someone who has strengths and weaknesses directly in opposition to his own, or the battle isn’t worth the telling. A passionate character cannot engage in a merely protocol fight. It is against their nature.
And no minstrel ever wrote songs about a couple that merely crept along until marriage, unless one strangled the other out of frustration. Or eternally slapped each other with white gloves at the gates of dawn…
Of the characters that exist in the Big Bang universe, only Penny, Leslie Winkle or Wheaton could thus possibly be a worthy adversary and conqueror of Sheldon’s heart. Yet Winkle's gone, Wheaton might have a problem with such a tryst, and Penny has been branded Leonard's from the start. Which is a problem in itself. Yet theoretically, Penny would have been ideal. The other two lack both warmth and chaos (edit - and were merely wishful thinking), both qualities, particularly warmth, I feel are essential to balance Sheldon's nature.
But we all know that here.
Regardless, I still maintain that it is unnecessary, and a violation of the character’s original integrity to involve him in romance at all.
Could a man who is an outsider by virtue of his intellect, one day not be hallowed for it, and raised upon the shoulders of the crowd? That is another feasible poetic truth.
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Trust No One - 12-20-2014
(12-20-2014, 09:27 PM)Idle Miscreant Wrote: Like Ricardo, I am in the bargaining stage. To which end I have been trawling through IMDB trying to pinpoint the crux of the problem. (Pinpointing a crux sounds highly painful, doesn’t it…) Yet the more I look into the credits of these episodes, the more gloomy and confused I feel.
The same 10 or so minds which created the brilliance of the early seasons, the Sheldonian spiels, the surrealism, innocence and charm, are now not striking the same chords with our particular lot, with this particular show. So what has occurred?
Well to start with, brilliance is certainly still occurring in segments. Look at the plots of the past few years. Remove the majority that are relationship ones. Are the few remaining not inspired? There is surrealism present in the Darth Vader convention episode, the Proton/Dagobah, the 43 Peculiarity wormhole, the Transporter and Tiny Spock, the cannonading of Sheldon by Santa. And so forth. There are odd unusual stories, such as Monster Isolation (the first Penny plot since Barbarian) and Cooper Extraction (even if it was strangely unpleasant in execution. Why were they so mean to each other?)
What falters, invariably, are the relationship episodes, and as these relationships have come to consume the characters, making them either hectoring, weary or unrecognisable, the characters as a whole falter as well, and this staggers over into the non-relationship episodes.
I am pondering why this troubles us so. I know there are a number of literary sods here, and I suspect in those cases there might be a sense of impotence as regards the actions of characters we cannot control, unlike in our novels and stories.
However, beyond that and regardless of occupation, there seems a genuine despair at these characters’ trajectories. Not simply because they are in discordance with our wishes, (that would not cause such festering grievances) but perhaps because they are inherently untruthful, and thereby going against some greater artistic principle.
(Excuse late night dithery pontiwankification…Half my brain is asleep without me.)
These trajectories have been decreed by some unknown agent, and the writers must do what they can. To some great degree they have triumphed. The plots, as said, are frequently inspired. Provided they are not romantic. There the inherent wrongness of the partner choices (or in Sheldon’s case his very presence in a relationship), and the “arc” therefore of those two characters, destroys any attempt at aesthetic virtue or poetic truth before they even begin. It is not their fault. It is an impossible position. No writer, however brilliant, can salvage a character from an improper fate. And as far as I understand, their fates do not lie within their purview.
These “poetic truths” are often as simple as an inversion of predicament. Off the top of my bleary head (although there’s a whole post on this somewhere), romantically speaking;
Penny, as a character defined by her appearance, should end up with someone who is blind to it. Assuring therefore, that they are with her for her intrinsic nature. Also rendering her main weapon useless.
Leonard, his life previously dictated by his need for approval from others, should learn his own worth, and to acknowledge his passions rather than be ashamed of them, and thus ultimately pardon or approve himself.
As for Sheldon, much as it annoys me, because I dislike romance, the poetic truth of a man governed by his mind could conceivably be to be conquered by his heart, or at least engage in warfare with it. However, it absolutely cannot be over a person who is an intentional copy of himself. It must be on account of, and with someone who has strengths and weaknesses directly in opposition to his own, or the battle isn’t worth the telling. A passionate character cannot engage in a merely protocol fight. It is against their nature.
And no minstrel ever wrote songs about a couple that merely crept along until marriage, unless one strangled the other out of frustration. Or eternally slapped each other with white gloves at the gates of dawn…
Of the characters that exist in the Big Bang universe, only Penny, Leslie Winkle or Wheaton could thus possibly be a worthy adversary and conqueror of Sheldon’s heart. Yet Winkle's gone, Wheaton might have a problem with such a tryst, and Penny has been branded Leonard's from the start. Which is a problem in itself. But Penny would have been ideal.
But we all know that here.
Regardless, I still maintain that it is unnecessary, and a violation of the character’s original integrity to involve him in romance at all.
Could a man who is an outsider by virtue of his intellect, one day not be hallowed for it, and raised upon the shoulders of the crowd? That is another feasible poetic truth.
It's a very interesting debate in terms of wanting Sheldon to refrain from romance or having Sheldon involved in Ship? I rather Sheldon not be involved if he is going to be part of this lousy Shamy Ship. I just think it would have been comedy gold and all sorts of goodness to see Sheldon trying to make it work in a Ship with Penny. Such great entertainment to see Sheldon and Penny trying to make it work and the rest of the friends caught up in the fun. To me, a comedy simply does not work when it's so locked down in established and boring Ships. A comedy needs to be free to surprise the audience and keep them on their toes.
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Louise - 12-21-2014
This is a good post, and I had to re-read it several times, because it really gets-at some deeper issues.
Quote:Regardless, I still maintain that it is unnecessary, and a violation of the character’s original integrity to involve him in romance at all.
Agreed. I am not opposed to the idea of romantic Shenny; I really have no feelings one way or the other about that, but fortunately fanfiction exists, so that we can explore relationships outside the bounds of the show itself.
Quote:Could a man who is an outsider by virtue of his intellect, one day not be hallowed for it, and raised upon the shoulders of the crowd? That is another feasible poetic truth.
Yes, that would be a very triumphant ending for Sheldon and for the show; to have his efforts acknowledged.
Quote:However, beyond that and regardless of occupation, there seems a genuine despair at these characters’ trajectories. Not simply because they are in discordance with our wishes, (that would not cause such festering grievances) but perhaps because they are inherently untruthful, and thereby going against some greater artistic principle.
This is a key point. I don't see any HQers whining because some minor plot-point didn't go their way. This isn't about wanting the show to conform to our every whim. Any TV show (or other piece of media) is going to have parts I like, and parts I don't like, and I accept that. I don't see any Nostalgics throwing a tantrum because they wanted XYZ and they didn't get it. It's not even about pairings or about "who ends up with who", really. Again, if I want alternative pairings, that's what fanfiction is for.
If they'd somehow managed to introduce all these pairings without changing the personalities of the characters, I'd be complaining less, although I'd still be very skeptical. (but these pairings are inherently flawed and unworkable, so in order for them to work, they'd have to be very different, to the point where we're no longer talking about the same thing.)
It's about the destruction of the characters. It's because this outcome is not possible without warping, twisting, inverting, and dismantling the personalities of the characters. It's not a realistic outcome.
Quote:an improper fate.
Exactly. Like I've said before, someone who had only seen S1 and S2 would never, ever, ever predict the events of S5 onward. They simply wouldn't. They'd be incredulous when you told them. To someone who had only seen S1, the events of S8 would sound like some kind of SNL parody of the show.
This stuff simply does not compute. The stuff we're seeing now is not the natural result of the stuff we saw previously.
You expressed it better than I can, but these events ring false, in terms of logic and storytelling. It's cheating. It's a bait-and-switch, and people who expect the storytellers to "play fair" feel like we've been tricked, now.
We know what a coherent, believable, cogent story-arc looks like, and this ain't it.
Whoever likened TPTB to children playing with dolls is right: they're just arbitrarily moving things around. As we've all observed, the characters are being made to fit the plot, rather than having plots which flow naturally from the characters.
Personally, my biggest issue is that I don't like seeing the characters be humiliated, belittled, and portrayed in a largely negative light, as if their faults and weaknesses outweigh their strengths and good points. Also, the faults and weaknesses they have now are *different in nature* from the ones they had in S1/S2. There's been a lot of inconsistency and blatant retconning. It's not about "my fave character is a perfect precious angel and can do no wrong", it's about he/she wouldn't do these things we're seeing now. You won't get (much) argument from me if you say that Howard behaves strangely around women, but you sure will if you say he's lazy and stupid and deserves to have bad things happen to him. Real!Sheldon would be difficult to be around (I'm a little scared of him, TBH), but he's not racist and crude. I'm not a huge follower of Penny, but she knows how to use glue. And wasn't there an episode about her stealing from a charity?? Yikes. I could see her maybe taking home some food from the CCF, but not outright stealing.
And while we don't want to watch the characters being unduly mean, we don't want to see them being generically "nice" in ways that are out of character, either. These characters had a bit of an edge to them; they're not cutesy and sentimental. The difference between cute and cutesy is one of those "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it" things. Like Gripe said in a post comparing this recent Christmas episode to Bath Item, it's about *specificity.* If these characters wanted to do something nice, they'd do it in their own unique and quirky way, not in a Hallmark type of way. And no, throwing in a few sci-fi references doesn't cut it. Howard giving what's-her-face a star necklace gags me. (when did he get hip to these conventionally romantic gestures, and if he's able to behave in a conventionally romantic way, then why did he have so much trouble with women, in the first place???)
Quote:Like Ricardo, I am in the bargaining stage.
I don't know what stage I'm in. I regard S3 or 4 onward as a separate canon, some type of re-boot or re-make, just as there are different versions of Batman or James Bond or any other franchise. Lately, the show itself actually bothers me less than the destruction of the characters' legacy. I don't want the public at large to remember these characters *this way* and view them *this way.* Like I said in another post, it's almost like trying to prevent a friend from embarassing themselves, and that's a painful feeling. What upsets me is that other people are seeing the characters in this negative light, and remembering them that way.
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Louise - 12-22-2014
True story: when I first saw a screencap of that scene where H. gives B. a star necklace, I thought "Oh, he's gonna try and get her to wear a Star of David so that he can lie to his mother about her being Jewish, like he did with Leslie Winkle."
Much as I dislike the H/B relationship in its entirety, that would've been a lot funnier, and in line with stuff he's tried before.
But no, it was something *romantical* and *sweet*
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Idle Miscreant - 01-06-2015
Still can't get my head around this. Possibly I should stop trying. (There's a thought!) But Lorre, Lorre...what happened!
![[Image: 2ns9vya.jpg]](http://i58.tinypic.com/2ns9vya.jpg)
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Idle Miscreant - 01-08-2015
Youtube "helpfully" recommended I watch this Promo. It's quite strange seeing a bit of season 8 directly on top of months of strict S1-4. The Sheldon character has completely vanished. I don't know who this is at all.
There are, of course, far more vicious bizarro-Sheldon moments, but I don't want to see them. The problem with the above scene, and my reason for posting it, is that it's an example of sacrificing character for humour, in this case a single joke about phone reception.
Sheldon (ORIGINAL Sheldon) would have had endless ways of entertaining himself (and aggravating Leonard)!
He also would have stored the possible pre-phone entertainment scenarios in his head, and not needed to look them up in the first place. Original Sheldon was bloody Wikipedia.
They keep dropping essential Sheldon characteristics, willy-nilly, with no regard for the fact that the life of a character is tied to its consistency.
KNOWING how Sheldon will react in any given scenario was an enormous part of the humour and his appeal. This was possible because for 4 years he was a largely self-consistent character. He had very certain, dependable traits. Which are now gone.
Look at this list again:Vintage Sheldon Quirks
I don't think the fucker has ANY of these left!
And these are IMPORTANT characteristics. Suddenly making Sheldon some sort of idiot who is dependent on his smart phone, for the sake of a smart phone joke, is incredibly insulting to the character. It's been happening for three years, and has increased exponentially since mid-way through S7.
I'm particularly peeved, because these are very intelligent writers, and whilst comedy might be enormously difficult to write, it is surely a simple thing to keep to a list of 12 basic Sheldonian characteristics, or even the 6 most essential. These characteristics MADE the character in the first place. It's those quotes and THAT Sheldon which is on all the merchandise. It's THAT Sheldon which people immediately think of when you mention TBBT. The brilliant, odd, bazinga-spouting alien with unalterable routines, triple-knocking on Penny's door.
Bring him back you goddamn CBS bastards (or whichever head-honcho is bloody responsible) or I'll be playing the goddamn bagpipes outside your door in television hell.
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Louise - 01-08-2015
It's early and I'm sleepy and I don't have an adequate response to this post.
(although I feel and share the sadness and anger.)
I just wanted to say that I would NEVER force someone to sit and wait for me while I'm shopping. The supposedly "typical female behavior" on this show is just so awful. At this point, if I were a guy, I would run screaming from *any* of these female characters.
(not that the male behavior is much better, but you see what I mean. "Men like to have fun, women are killjoys/buzzkills who like to put their boyfriend/husband through all kinds of hellish tedium" seems to be the theme.)
The idea that it's the *number* of female characters which makes a show more accessible/relatable to female viewers is such a crock. At least, it is for me.
ETA:
Quote: the life of a character is tied to its consistency.
This belongs on a plaque somewhere. Or a banner, or something!
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Trust No One - 01-08-2015
(01-08-2015, 07:58 AM)Louise Wrote: It's early and I'm sleepy and I don't have an adequate response to this post.
(although I feel and share the sadness and anger.)
I just wanted to say that I would NEVER force someone to sit and wait for me while I'm shopping. The supposedly "typical female behavior" on this show is just so awful. At this point, if I were a guy, I would run screaming from *any* of these female characters.
(not that the male behavior is much better, but you see what I mean. "Men like to have fun, women are killjoys/buzzkills who like to put their boyfriend/husband through all kinds of hellish tedium" seems to be the theme.)
The idea that it's the *number* of female characters which makes a show more accessible/relatable to female viewers is such a crock. At least, it is for me.
ETA:
This belongs on a plaque somewhere. Or a banner, or something!
These characters and especially Sheldon and Penny were not meant for this. They were not be meant to be tied down to horrible significant others. Sheldon and Penny were meant to be the keys to the show and the rest of the cast along for the ride IMO.
RE: The rest of Season Grate - Berliner - 01-12-2015
OMG, I just saw that smart phone scene with S&L. I'm still baffled and have no words ... . I don't know who that guy is, but it's certainly not Sheldon. Oh dear, what have they done ...